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  #1  
Old 12-02-2005, 06:19 PM
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bore smoothing system from Midway


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Hello,
The latest flyier by Midway offers a"Final finish barrel polishing ystem".This consists of 5 specially treated bullets that are fired in sequence to smoothe the bore.
This is endorsed by a pretty good shooter;Tubbs.
Does anyone have any experience with this system?
Thanks,
Frank
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  #2  
Old 12-02-2005, 06:26 PM
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I am only familiar with Marshall's firelapping kit offered on this site. I cannot imagine shooting just 5 bullets and having my rifle firelapped efficiently and with precision. BUT I may be wrong.

Besides, using Marshall's system you get to shoot more.

Dave

Last edited by VTDW; 12-02-2005 at 06:28 PM.
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  #3  
Old 12-02-2005, 07:36 PM
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Kragman,

I have no experience with them but did notice them the other day on Midway's site. Another provider is NECO [ http://www.neconos.com/shop/index.ph...=20&cart=37318 ] who sells pre-imbedded bullets. Wheeler Engineering also makes a kit. I have BTB's kit, but have not got around to fire lapping yet. I think Marshall's is the best deal ... my thinking behind that is he provides more lapping compound than the others do, and only in 320 grit. Other lapping kits include varying compounds...according to Marshall's BTB Technical Guide, 320 grit is the optimum grit. While one might question it, he and many others on the forum have had good results with that. On a similar vein, here is an excerpt in braces below from an article by Dan Lilja of Lilja Precision Rifle Barrels [ http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles...el_fouling.htm ]:

{ Makers of custom hand-lapped barrels spend a lot of time achieving the internal finish that they require. We've experimented with different techniques and products and have settled on what we believe gives us the best finish. We strive to get a smooth uniform finish without losing the geometry of the rifling -- that is, keeping the lands sharp-cornered and crisp. And though it may surprise some, lapping to a finer finish will result in an increase in fouling. A barrel can be too smooth.

We've had customers ask about aftermarket operations and procedures that will "improve" the interior finish of our barrels. And I always warn them against it. The thought of lapping with 1200 grit makes me cringe. And I also feel it is very desirable to have the direction of the finish lay parallel to the rifling. A finish like this is produced naturally with hand-lapping. Some procedures can and will produce a directionless finish. My advice is to leave the internal finish to the barrel maker. Trying to "improve" it is only going to make it worse. The exception being unlapped production barrels. }

Note Mr. Lilja does not state what the optimum grit is, but he implies that he has found one and that you can go too fine. Most other lapping kits I have seen use progressively finer grits and also do not provide custom diameter lapping bullets ... just the nominal calibers. For my purposes, I like the custom diameter .432 bullets provided by BTB for my 444. OK, having said that, I definitely see the appeal to pre-imbedded bullets from a convenience standpoint. One criticism I would have for the BTB kit is the bolt provided for seating the lapping bullets had very rough threads. I spent some time filing the threads on mine before it would smoothly screw into my press. But you only have to do that once and it's good for all firelapping jobs thereafter.

Well, I'm no expert but I've done some looking into this and that's what I had to share. Best of luck.
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  #4  
Old 12-02-2005, 08:50 PM
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Have the NECO kit that was purchased long before becoming a member of this board. It is for 6.5mm and you have to roll the bullets in the grit of choice yourself. Kit comes with 4 different grades of lapping compound, from coarse to extra fine.

Followed the directions for both impregnating the bullets with the compound and loading the reduced loads, plus the sequence of bullets with the compound. Sure did smooth out the wrinkles in a couple of rifles - one with a new barrel and one that was pre-fired, but with boring button marks.

I've since used the compounds to help free up sticky bolt travel and lapping bolt lugs. Works great.

I'm sure the one offered by our host, Beartooth Bullets will equal the NECO in all respects.
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  #5  
Old 12-02-2005, 09:13 PM
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Just a quick follow-up ... NECO [ http://www.neconos.com/shop/index.ph...=20&cart=37318 ] actually sells different kits. You can just buy the lapping compound, or roll your own kits. They also sell jacketed bullets pre-imbedded with compound as well as fully loaded lapping cartridges.

M.L McPherson [ http://levergun.com/main_index.htm ], author of Accurizing the Factory Rifle, also gives NECO good marks in that book, which is very good by the way. The best price I have found for this book is at MidwayUSA.
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  #6  
Old 12-02-2005, 09:45 PM
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I've used the Tubbs system on some of my 30 cal rifles.

Copper fouling was definetely reduced. The rifles are much easier to clean.
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  #7  
Old 12-03-2005, 03:46 AM
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I've read Marshall's directions and while I have not used his kit, I have to say it is probably one of the best available. Fire lapping is fine IF everything is perfect and I'm sure Marshall will agree that it does not fit every need. I've fire lapped several barrels much in the same manner as Marshall's plan, would have bought his system had I known about it then but that was back before computers.

Results were generally good but then there came the exceptions which proved to be costly. If everything is not perfect with the chamber & throat, all the fire lapping the world is not going to help and will most often result in doing more damage. I ended up replacing a barrel on a rifle that had a minor throat abnormality which could have been cured quickly and easily with a little honing, didn't realize it until I fire lapped it and made things worse. Had to replace the barrel which ended up costing me more than what the rifle was worth.

There are those who fire lapp for the wrong reasons too. One fellow I know fire lapped the h*ll out of a .30-30 trying to get rid of his fouling problem...barrel was fine to begin with, his lube sucked. Another one was a guy who fire lapped his .243 win until it wouldn't shoot worth nothing, barrel on this one was fine too, problem was he tried using bullets too long for the rifling twist...yet another barrel replaced for no reason.

I'll also second the comment on making a barrel "too smooth". You need a certain amount of surface irregularity in the bore to hold lubricant and I don't care if you're using soft case lead over black powder or steel jacketed bullets. Whenever you have metal to metal contact you are getting friction which causes wear that is directly proportional to the amount of heat input. Higher the friction, more heat that is generated, more wear that is seen. Small irregularities in the bore surface will hold lubricant and when the bullet goes down the bore, it will tend to slide on the thin layer of lube rather than against the barrel steel. This is why you'll find people griping about copper fouling after X number of rounds...that's caused by the lube being burned out of the bore completely and you're back to metal on metal. Of course the bore cannot be dripping wet with oil but there needs to be a thin film present to prevent metal to metal contact.

When I was in the service I shot competition representing my unit. I was given a re-man M-14 with a brand new barrel. Comp was either slow fire 40 rounds or rapid fire 20 rounds. I had a one piece range rod w/ bore guide I took with me. I ran a patch dampened with lube down the bore between sets, others did not do this and at the end of the day all complained about their groups falling off and how they had to scrub fouling from the bore. Most never caught on to what I was up to and their scores reflected it. One round on each set was discounted anyway so the intitial shot fired after the lube patch was run down didn't matter if it flew off a little anyway but most times there was no considerable change. Never had a fouling problem and after firing umteen thousands of rounds, my bore was still in great condition while others had to be replaced. A few years ago, I passed my secret onto a pistol comp shooter using a .45 acp who complained about having replace barrels often and was getting a lot of fouling. He tried my secret with his new barrel and as of last weekend, he's still using the same barrel and what a shock, no more fouling problems!

Fire lapping has it's place and can be a definite benefit but be sure you are doing it for the right reasons. Personally, I take the more boring route and hand lapp those bore which need lapping and most can be done in a few minutes. As for the 5 shot wonder cures, this could work and probably will work to remove the slight rough/sharpness of the rifling lands, same can be done with a leather lapp or piece of scotch bright and a few strokes of the cleaning rod. Rifling need not be so sharp as to looke like a razor edge to work, I have a 6.5 Carcano made in So. Africa with the two groove rounded bottom rounded land rifling that will drill a single hole at 100yds, all it needed was the right load combination and a little bolt work.
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  #8  
Old 12-03-2005, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leverite
I've used the Tubbs system on some of my 30 cal rifles.

Copper fouling was definetely reduced. The rifles are much easier to clean.
Leverite,
Thanks,a lot.
All the other posts were informative,and welcome,but yours was the one that I wanted.
I suffered a disability this year,and may never be able to shoot hot loads again.Plain based lead bullets are my focus now.I had thought that polishing the bores of my rifles would be in order now.My question was about the worth of this particular polishing system.
Most responders do not agree that polishing the bore of a pretty good shooter will improve it.I'm suprised;but I accept it.
Thanks to your pot,I'll get the Tubbs system for my 1917 Enfield,which has a pitted bore.It does shoot jacketed bullets but not cast.
Frank
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  #9  
Old 12-03-2005, 08:25 PM
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the most tedious part of using the Tubbs system is having to spotlessly clean the bore between strings of 10 shots.
BUt, you'll notice as you go along that the cleaning gets easier.

On some of my rifles that we're grouping pretty well, I used less than the 10 bullets per grit. The instructions are good about that and they also give you some extra of the finer grit bullets for future use if you need them.

You may not get super results, if your bore is badly pitted, as the grits are not coarse enough to smooth those pits out. It is "final finishing".

Good luck w/ your project.
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  #10  
Old 12-04-2005, 06:02 PM
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Frank, one of the other mods, DOK I think, tried one of the kits from Midway (I think) and found that it did indeed work to his satisfaction. I'm going from memory here so you might want to double-check with him.

To me that just doesn't seem right to use a jacketed bullet instead of a soft lead lap, but maybe there isn't enough difference in relative hardness between cast bullets and jacketed bullets (vs. barrel steel hardness) to notice.

Anyway.... one final though, although I've had to put a LOT of lapping bullets through some revolvers to get rid of the thread choke under the frame, I've never put more than 20 through a rifle barrel.

Best of luck.....
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  #11  
Old 12-05-2005, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leverite
the most tedious part of using the Tubbs system is having to spotlessly clean the bore between strings of 10 shots.
BUt, you'll notice as you go along that the cleaning gets easier.

On some of my rifles that we're grouping pretty well, I used less than the 10 bullets per grit. The instructions are good about that and they also give you some extra of the finer grit bullets for future use if you need them.

You may not get super results, if your bore is badly pitted, as the grits are not coarse enough to smooth those pits out. It is "final finishing".

Good luck w/ your project.
Leverite,
I already have a Wheeler fire lapping kit which starts with 220 grit and ends with 600 grit. What grits are in the Tubbs systm?
I would expect finer,but don't know.
Frank
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  #12  
Old 12-05-2005, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kragman71
Leverite,
I already have a Wheeler fire lapping kit which starts with 220 grit and ends with 600 grit. What grits are in the Tubbs systm?
I would expect finer,but don't know.
Frank

Sorry...don't have the specs in their grit. It's "smudgy" when you rub the bullets.

Here's their website

http://www.davidtubb.com/
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  #13  
Old 12-07-2005, 01:27 PM
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I started with the Neco kit some years ago. Its grits are 240,400,800, and 1200. One thing that sets them apart is they are laboratory grade abrasives. Amateur telescope makers figured out long ago that lab grade abrasives cut about twice as fast as standard grades. This is because the particle size distribution in them is much narrower, so they don’t have as many finer particles packing around the larger ones. If you look at abrasive particle size distribution for standard grade abrasives, the amount of overlap between grades is astonishing.

I have used this kit to lap a number of 30 caliber barrels. The kit instructions say to start with 240 grit for the larger bores with 4 mil thick lands or higher, but to start with 400 grit for .22’s and other small bores with 2 mil lands.

I have used cast bullets with the kit and jacketed bullets. I found the cast bullets required a lot more abrasive to imbed and had a harder time removing constrictions. When Merril Martin was working with NECO and writing this stuff up in Precision Shooting, he suggested harder bullets straighten a bore while softer ones tend to polish it evenly by bumping up to fit wherever they go. Too hard a bullet springs back from a constriction and also polishes evenly. Jacketed bullets have hard exteriors, but soft cores, so they have a yield point that doesn’t correspond to cast bullet hardness behavior precisely. Indent them beyond a point and they don’t seem to spring back as hard as, say linotype.

I found with the reduced loads NECO recommended, that long bullets like Tubb uses just would not obdurate to fill the corners in the rifling. Tubb has to fire his at near full-house pressures to get this to happen. From that point, his long bullets do indeed finish cutting sooner than a short bearing surface with the same abrasive imbedded would do. With the NECO kit I got the best results in 30 caliber using bullets pulled from M2 ball. The crimp indented the center region of these bullets, so the front and trailing edges of them are often the only part of the bearing surface abrasive imbeds into, but this small area deflects easily, fills rifling and cleans out tight spots admirably. Tubb claims a shot out throat can be recovered with his system, though bullets may need to be seated out a bit further for same accuracy afterward. I haven’t tried this with his or other kits.

Later, Martin wrote about what he called “Carbon Tunnel Syndrome”. This is a bore surface packed with carbon that seems to mitigate fouling. It’s ability to adhere and build may one advantage of not going too smooth. But here are my experiences with smooth:

I have a mouse gun with an electropolished BlackStar Acumax barrel. This bore is as smooth as bores get. After a match I run one patch of Kroil, two patches with Iosso Bore Paste each worked back and forth 8-10 times as I go down the tube from the breech, followed by one patch of Kroil followed by a dry patch followed by LPS3 for storage. My Hawkeye borescope shows no fouling remains after the dry patch. One caveat: I have used moly coated Sierra bullets in it exclusively, which don’t foul badly to begin with, except for build-up in the chamber where the case neck profile meets the start of the freebore.

Originally, cleaning my M1 Garand’s G.I. 30-06 barrel, after firing just 5 fouling shots required five patches of Shooter’s Choice followed by six patches with Iosso Bore Paste each worked back and forth the full length of the barrel 20 times, followed by ten more patches of Shooter’s Choice, with two-minute rest periods between patches to let the ammonium oleate work. Whew! I had to firelap 20 rounds of NECO’s 240 grit abrasive through it before the constriction around the upper contour and throat were no longer detectable by slugging. This was using the pulled M2 bullets over 12 grains of Unique. Next came 10 rounds with the 400 grit abrasive, then 10 with the 800 grit, and finally 20 with the 1200 grit, per NECO’s instructions. Cleaning every 5 rounds, every cleaning got easier. The last cleaning consisted of 2 patches of Shooter’s Choice, followed by 10 strokes with just 1 patch with Iosso Bore Paste, followed by 2 more Shooter’s Choice patches. After a full match it takes just about twice that last prescription and it is completely clean. It used to be that after a match, it semmed no number of of Sweet’s 7.62 saturated patches could clean it. It required overnight soaking.

I rebarreled another Garand belonging to our CMP club (truly shot out) with an inexpensive, but new, G.I. contour barrel. I slugged it and it felt like my original G.I. barrel. Apparently if they don’t stress-relieve the barrel before contouring, it opens slightly wherever material is removed. The more that is removed, the more it opens up, tending to make most barrel contours wider at the muzzle. A bad thing for accuracy. The Garand contour changes diameter abruptly at the lower band, so it is very apparent slugging from the muzzle. You feel nothing but easy travel slugging from the breech (I tried that before installing it) because it just gets wider immediately forward of the throat.

Before and after lapping the second Garand barrel’s cleaning characteristics were just like my first one’s. Lapping was a major improvement.

I intend to try some firelapping with impregnated straight-sided Lyman gas checks on cast bullets next. This in a Marlin 1895. I am not going to worry about making it too smooth. Neco’s 1200 grit polish is not a mirror finish. It improved cleaning in the Garands. Moreover, I fully intend to use MolyFusion Oil to put a molybdenum phosphate conversion surface on the bore for fouling reduction, and not to rely on forming a carbon tunnel.

As to other kits, I would be leery of shooting 220 grit non-lab grade material. The largest particle size in standard grade 220 grit silicone carbide is 102 microns. This is the same as the average size particle in 120 grit. Normally this will be packed up by the finer stuff, but occasionally one will stand out on its own, and that’s a big scratch. For standard grade abrasive, 320 grit is a near perfect choice, with its largest particle being 60 microns, or not quite as big as the mean size for 240 grit. That, I know from experience, is safe for the over-.22 size guns. The finer mean size, packed with still smaller particles will keep most of the surface about where the 400 grit NECO abrasive puts it.

I also am about to assemble a 6.5-.284 for long range matches. That barrel is a lapped air-gauged Douglas blank. I won’t touch it with lapping abrasive. No point. It will, however, get MolyFusion treatment for mitigating fouling.

Nick

Last edited by unclenick; 12-07-2005 at 01:51 PM.
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  #14  
Old 12-07-2005, 03:38 PM
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Be careful when fire lapping by shooting bullets down your barrel!!! The bullet is pretty much a moldable projectile molded by force against the rear after ignition and the sides of the barrel as pressure increases...the most pressure and therefore the most wear will be in the throat, the first few inches of the barrel and after a few shots, on down the barrel. Saw where early on in the thread is was mentioned that the .243 was ruined and so was a 30-30 by this method. No matter which shooting abrasive you send down your barrel, the throat will be worn more than the rest. Keep that in mind when lapping using this method. You may be better off doing it the old way, it takes longer, but the results are just as good, if not better, and, the barrel throat and all are worn equally.

Buy a bunch of hard bullets, hornady is a good example, or sierra, solid or soft point of the largest weight available to you for your gun. Shoot one shot at a time, cleaning between each one with solvent, not necessary to oil it again until you're done but, clean with copper solvent and brushes between each shot for at least 20 shots. Then do the same thing, cleaning between every 5 shots for another 50 rounds.

Shoot your gun then for pattern with your normal shooting cartridge. You should see a marked improvement. You may want to increase the first 20 rounds to 40 on a new barrel.

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Old 12-07-2005, 04:19 PM
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Many Thanks,
I appreciate the detailed explainations that accompanied the advise.
I understand now,that polishing the bore is good when done by hand.It MAY be good when done with bullets.
I will buy 1 set for my 1917 Enfield.That barrel is hard to clean,and does not shoot cast very well.
Frank
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Old 12-08-2005, 06:15 PM
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Polishing alone does not guaranty good performance. It's the lapping that does. I have an expensive Steyr Scout that fouls like my old Garand. I was hesitant to lap it, considering that it is extremely accurate, which I did not want to upset, so I tried running only the finer grade (800 and 1200) abrasives through to polish it. It got nicely polished, but that didn't help the fouling much. The borescope shows the surface is cleaned up nicely, but the fouling is mainly due to a slight constriction near the throat, so lapping is required.

Being careful with firelapping should go without saying (the NECO kit has you checking by slugging the bore every 5 shots). But I have two guns, including my Garand, that I first tried burnishing with a jacketed bullet break-in procedure published in Precision Shooting, and close to the one described by Osoksnip[er, and it didn't do much to reduce fouling. One of the problems, as I understand it, is button rifling tends to bias burrs and grain edges in the direction the button is pushed through. Many manufacturers don't bother noting which way the button started in the barrel blank, so either end can become the breech. If you get one in which the button traveled from the muzzle end, you have the burrs and grain boundaries biased to file the bullet, so you may have significantly greater trouble with fouling. The lapping overcomes that by cleaning those surface defects away.

Hand lapping has the advantage of maintaining constant bore diameter. Its drawbacks are, greater skill needed and no throat polishing is done (though light firelapping as I did on the Steyr would fix that post hand-lap). Firelapping tends to move the throat forward a little—I measured a 1 mil difference on my Garand throat wear gage after firelapping, but that isn’t a lot. It will open groove diameter a little at the breech end, but barrels that taper maybe a half thousandth as you go toward the muzzle are considered desirable from an accuracy standpoint. Many factory gun barrels have just the opposite because the blank wasn't stress-relieved before contouring.

Nick

Last edited by unclenick; 12-09-2005 at 12:42 PM.
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Old 12-09-2005, 05:51 AM
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Some time ago, Gun Test mag. did a test on the NECO system. They felt it was worth the effort despite the worry of wearing the throat. It can be useful to "clean up" a damaged barrel or thread choke situation.

I have lapped at least 12 barrels on my guns to be used for cast bullets. I have used Marshall's for every one. The gun with the most experience, (my 1895) as over 12000 rounds though it since then, and still shoots with great accuracy. The primary goal according to Marshall, with lapping, is to remove the constrictions in the barrel. Smoothing the machine marks will also restore better accuracy, but the constrictions are of primary concern. When shooting cast bullets, the GROOVE must also be lapped for best accuracy. No hard bullet of jackted configuration is going to obturate the depths of a groove as evenly as a softer cast bullet. The cast bullet when properly rolled in the 320 abrasive will evenly lapp the lands AND grooves hitting particularly the high spots and wearting them down. The softer 11 brinnel hardness bullets will then reobturate, keeping the wear increasingly even as the lapping occurs. His claim is that the harder bullet driven fast will not lapp beyond the constriction. This promotes uneven lapping.
In my experienced any damage in my guns. The polishing he advocates does help with cleaning later on, (and lack of leading), but the firelapping seems the most important. I have not done any of my bolt guns, and since I don't shoot any cast through them, the NECO system may well be OK. For my money, Marshall's system is superior for shooting cast.. Typically, my groups have shrunk by 1/2 with jackted bullet accuracy as well.
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Old 12-09-2005, 01:01 PM
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Actually, NECO also sells cast bullets in the same hardness range for lapping. Their instructions cover cast and jacketed alike, with the cast using somewhat lighter loads.

I just found personally that the very narrow band of copper in crimped G.I. ball bullets cut the constrictions out of the G.I barrels faster than cast bullets did. It may be optimal to lap a gun for use with cast bullets using cast bullets, and a gun for jacketed bullets using jacketed bullets? I also found that full-bearing surface jacketed bullets need full power loads to obturated adequately to fill the grooves. Not a happy situation, to my thinking, because pressure could be considerably higher.

On the other hand, I read a thread on another forum recently where someone had managed to fire an oversize bullet in a rifle without it either blowing up or failing a subsequent inspection for safety. It was a .308 going down a 7mm-06 tube, or some such thing. I've forgotten the caliber details. Still, amazing that it didn't blow.

Next spring I will try my experiment with embedded gas checks verses embedding the bullets themselves. I managed to fit a TV camera to my bore scope. I will do some before and afer shots.

Nick
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Old 12-09-2005, 05:56 PM
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Unclenick -

Had a gunsmith rebarrel a 6.5 Swede (1941 Husqvarna) to 6.5x257 Roberts A.I.

Shot it for a couple of years trying to get stabilized loads and acceptable accuracy. Finally, in curiousity slugged the bore and found he had screwed a .257 bore to the action and chambered for the 6.5x257. Swaged several hundred .264 jacketed bullets with full loads down that .257 bore prior to discovering what had happened.

The action today wears a proper .264 bore with the correct chambering. A careful inspection of the action and bolt found no problems.

The Swedes make'um good!

It can happen.
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Last edited by kdub; 12-18-2005 at 09:33 AM.
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Old 12-18-2005, 07:57 AM
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Kdub,

Another good reminder that most bullets are formed by swaging operations in the first place; just not usually in the gun. Because of all the different powders and loading densities and case and action strengths in the world, there isn't any way generalize about the upper limits of the size differential you can get away with. If I recall the numbers correctly, the government puts a ±0.0015" tolerance on grove and bore diameters for .30 caliber barrels. At least, I recall the Garand being within spec with anything from a 0.3065" to a 0.3095" groove diameter. I am assuming the same applies to the bore (0.2985" to 0.3015") but don't know it for a fact. The bore dimension should be a little easier to keep because it is reamed. However, in war production reamers will be resharpened, so they will probably start half a thousandth too large when new and lose a few tenths with each sharpening. Feeding them too quickly or trying to take too big a cut with them will oversize a hole, so haste tends to dimension the hole oversize.

I once had a retired French police MAB chambered for .32 Auto. Jacketed bullets are either 0.311" or 0.312" diameter, while swaged and cast are 0.314" diameter for this chambering. The MAB groove diameter was 0.309". It wasn't bothered by having to swage any of these other numbers down.

So, it appears swaging 0.002" looks pretty safe for anything if you are careful to work your load up. More than that will be a matter of the gun and bullet specifics involved. A very lightweight action chambered for a fairly high pressure round could be ticklish.

When Hatcher investigated the disintegration of early Springfield '03 receivers, he found four of the sixty-some known cases were due to soldiers picking up and chambering and firing German 8mm rounds. This would have been the 1905 introduced 8x57 IS (8x57 JS commercially) cartridge, which actually employs an 8.22 mm or 0.323” bullet. This cartridge is otherwise identical to the 1888 introduced 8x57 JR (8.077 mm or 0.318” bullet) case. So these would be swaged down 15 thousandths in a .308 barrel, and 16.5 thousandths in a 0.3065” groove barrel. Add that to poor heat treatment and there just wasn't enough pressure margin to handle it. On the other hand, I don’t think I believe that in all of WW I only 4 U.S. soldiers ever made this mistake. So it probably wasn't usually destructive. It probably required the combination of a weak receiver and the oversize bullet to damage the gun.

Did anyone else see the recent episode of the Discovery Channel’s MythBusters where they tried to banana a shotgun barrel, and then and old Carcano barrel? Tough to do.

Nonetheless, let's all be careful out there. Right bullet for right gun is still the safest bet.

Nick

Last edited by unclenick; 12-18-2005 at 08:33 AM.
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