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  #1  
Old 06-05-2008, 02:18 PM
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Red face 223 Remington loads for 1-9" twist


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I recently bought a Remington 700 VTR in the 223 Rem, is there any body else who has the same rifle, or simular barrel 22" with a 1 in 9" twist, and if so do you have any recommendations for an accurate load for 200 and 300 yards? I loaded some Sierra 77 GR HPBT Match using 24.9 GR of BLC-2 and FED 205 Primers, and Winchester cases. The Hodgins data said the were moving at 2804 at the muzzle, they are ok, but I want better. I also tried the Hornady 68 GR BTHP Match, with 25.6 GR of BLC-2, fed 205, and Winch cases with very simular results, the hornady book said they were moving 2800 FPS. Should I speed them up or slow them down, or any other recommendations would be apprieciated.
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Old 06-05-2008, 03:34 PM
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Welcome to Beartooth Bullet forums.

I don't have the same rifle, but do have a .223 with a 1in9 barrel that's 26" long. As you know every rifle is a rule to it's self. Mine prefers the lighter bullets although it will shoot 69SMK's respectably. Guess my suggestion is try different bullets and see what your rifle likes, then tune up the load from there.
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Last edited by MontyF; 06-05-2008 at 03:36 PM.
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  #3  
Old 06-05-2008, 03:57 PM
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Hi MThuntin,

I have a 1:9 223 as well and its just like MontyF says, you have to find what your rifle likes to shoot or get a tuner and try to make it shoot what you like.

What kind of accuracy are you looking for .. 1 MOA, .5 MOA, better?
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  #4  
Old 06-05-2008, 07:26 PM
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223 groups

I'm getting 3/4" groups at one hundred yards, 1 1/2 to 2 at 200, and 2 1/2 to three at 300. My son has the model 700 SPS varmit 223 1 in 12 twist 26 inch barrel. We get groups half that size with 55 grain bullets. I'd like to match those groups
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  #5  
Old 06-05-2008, 09:39 PM
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So far the only bullets I've consistantly got down around to 1/2" group size (5 shots)have been 75gr a-max with Varget and some Sierra 53 HP using H335. A few groups of 55gr v-max's showed some promise but I need to work on those a bit more. Also, moving the bullets to .010 off the lands seem help to shrink the groups.
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  #6  
Old 06-06-2008, 01:39 AM
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Cannot speak of Varmint bullets, but my most accurate 55 grain load was 24.5 grains of varget, and a 55 grain winchester flat based power point [round nose soft point]
was able to get 1.3" groups at 200 with this load out of a Savage model 10FLP
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  #7  
Old 06-06-2008, 09:08 AM
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223 loads

I've never tried the H335 powder but my researce and what I've been hearing is good. also I've been hearing alot of talk about 55 gr flat base sp bullets sometimes working better in some rifles. So I think I'm going to try H335 with Hornady 55 GR SP SX, or some simular bullet and see what happens. Also we are measuring the loaded bullets to get them set as close to the landings as safly as possible.
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Old 06-06-2008, 09:21 AM
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My Savage 12FV has a 24 inch barrel with 1 in 9 twist. My standard load is a Sierra 55 gr Blitzking bullet with 21.5 gr of H4198 and a WW primer at 3100 fps. My gun consistantly shoots .5 or less with this load. I have tried several loads but this one seems to be the most constistant.
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  #9  
Old 06-06-2008, 10:54 AM
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1:9 is the most popular "compromise" twist for a .223. It will give decent accuracy with most bullets from around 45 gr. up to 72 gr. or so -- but as to which will be the most accurate, well, all you can do is try 'em all and see. If you know you want to stick to the lower weight bullets, you'd do best to go with a slower twist. If you know you want to use bullets at the heavier end of the spectrum, a faster twist would be the way to go.
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  #10  
Old 06-06-2008, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MThuntin View Post
So I think I'm going to try H335 with Hornady 55 GR SP SX, or some simular bullet and see what happens.
Watch out on those SPSX or other thin jacketed bullets, I shot some and they came apart on me when using starting loads. I did manage to get a few of them to shoot but I really had to back down on the velocity so I won't be buying those again.
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  #11  
Old 06-06-2008, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by can06 View Post
Watch out on those SPSX or other thin jacketed bullets, I shot some and they came apart on me when using starting loads. I did manage to get a few of them to shoot but I really had to back down on the velocity so I won't be buying those again.
I was at the range one day and met a fellow who had a brand-new bolt-action .223 that he'd just had built -- it was a purty thing! He was shooting and cussing -- couldn't even get a bullet on paper at 25 yards. I noticed I was seeing a streak of gray smoke every time he fired, and also noticed there was no visible impact on the earth backstop at 100 yards. Turned out he was shooting thin-skinned .45 gr hollowpoints with a max load of powder in a barrel with a 1:7 twist, and those little pills were just revving themselves to pieces! In conversation, I learned he had the rifle built because, for some reason, he wanted a .223 deer rifle. I pointed out, as nicely as I could, that the guy who'd built the rifle for him (and whom he had been roundly cussing) had done exactly the right thing -- installed a fast-twist barrel meant for heavy bullets, not ground squirrel bullets. I've wondered since if he ever came to his senses and worked up a proper load. I actually gave him some Wolf 69 gr. softpoint loads I had in the truck, and he was quickly shooting 100 yard groups just over an inch with those.
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  #12  
Old 06-06-2008, 09:33 PM
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The 9" twist will stabilize the 77 grain bullet because of its stubby shape. It was designed for magazine feeding, which is why it is used by the Army Squad Designated Marksmen. It hits harder and also gives them the 600 yard + range that standard ball will not; at least, not from the short M4 barrel.

If you are loading that bullet seated to 2.8" COL for magazine feed, however, Varget is actually marginal because a case filled 100% (without compressing) will only get to about 45,000 PSI. Varget just doesn't have enough bulk density for maximum performance without at least using a drop tube if not compressed charges in the cases. In a fast twist tube it is still pretty accurate, in part because the twist adds some acceleration resistance to let the pressure get a little higher, but mainly because the fast twist stabilizes the bullet well even at 2500 fps or so. It also does not, at those pressures, seem to have the kind of temperature immunity that it exhibits in the larger .308 and .30-06 cases, where it produces full pressure and really shines for accuracy.

What I would recommend is the old target shooter's standby for the .223, and that is Winchester 748. You will want to take a couple of extra steps for best results with a ball powder. Get an inexpensive flashhole deburring tool and use it (unless you have Lapua or Norma cases, which don't have burrs to begin with). Get a Redding Competition Seater Die (I've heard the less expensive Forster version works well, too, but have no experience with it); that can peel half an moa off your groups. You may or may not find match primers help? You may also find selecting cases with a tool that measures neck wall uniformity helps, depending on the brand of brass you use?

A .223 case loaded with the 77 grain bullet at 2.8" COL and filled to uncompressed capacity with 748 has almost 3 grains more powder in it than the same charge density of Varget, and will reach SAAMI maximum pressure for the .223. It will gain 300 fps over the filled but not compressed load of Varget with that bullet, and with a bullet running slightly short of optimal stability in your barrel twist, you will likely find a sweet spot load near the high end of velocity works best.

By the way, I believe the SAAMI standard barrel for .223 is 24" like it is for .308? I know the Europeans use 600 and 610 mm proof barrels for that round (roughly 23 5/8" and 24", respectively). Someone correct me if I am wrong here? I mention it because it will mean loads rated at 2800 fps in the standard SAAMI barrel will likely run more like 2700 fps in a 22" barrel with commercial chamber dimensions, depending on the bullet and powder combination.
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Last edited by unclenick; 06-06-2008 at 09:37 PM.
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  #13  
Old 06-07-2008, 02:03 AM
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Thanks for info Nick.

I've never really experimented with the 748 powder in .223, always been Varget for me, always had good results. What you describe however, makes sence!

My experiences with 748 have been on the .308 end, which worked fine in bolt guns, but cycled the M-14 too fast for my liking....also took ALOT of fussing to find a sweet load for that 14's stainless Douglas Barrel. In a side note however, IMR 4064 is the powder of choice for my 14....great results in accuracy, and add those miraculous 155 palma bullets, and she's a tackdriver....more so than a 168 or 175 match.

Always got great accuracy with the 168 and 4895 or BLc-2.

I've been wanting to experiment with H4198 or IMR's 3031 in the 223, just not enuff hours in the day.....
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  #14  
Old 06-07-2008, 07:18 AM
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Chris,

I think you'll like the 748 better in .223 than in the .308. Glen Zediker's book, Handloading for Competition indicates he likes it, and I noticed that all the OBT (optimum barrel time) load recipes for .223 on Dan Newberry's site are 748 loads. I think that powder finds its niche in the .223.

When I was playing with ball powder (2520) in the M1A, I got 168 grain SMK groups to drop from about 1.25 moa to about 0.75 moa just by adding the flashhole deburring step. This was a less-that-full-case load. I never saw any improvement in stick powder loads from flashhole deburring in that gun, though. This was using Federal 210M primers, and I never did try magnum primers with it, which might have helped. Ball powder just does not like to burn consistently if the case is not pretty full. That barrel was the original standard weight Springfield NM barrel. I shot it out and got a Kreiger heavy barrel. I've underutilized it, though, having got a mouse gun, in the interim, that shoots under half moa when I do my part.
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  #15  
Old 06-07-2008, 05:13 PM
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I've been working with 748 in my 223 but just haven't found the right load ... yet. I've only tried 40 and 55 grain bullets, the better results have been with the heavier bullets but nothing to crow about. Varget is giving me wonderful accuracy with both of the bullets. Even without a chrony I can tell there is a speed benefit with 748. I hope an accurate load pops up before I run out of it.
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Old 06-07-2008, 09:16 PM
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The lighter bullets leave more room for powder, which changes the equation a bit. Rocky has pointed out before that Stoner designed the M16 to be used with IMR4198, which is wonderfully accurate with bullets up to 55 grains in the .223, just as it is in the .222. It may not give absolute maximum velocity, but it provides good peak pressure, does quite respectably on velocity, and produces more reasonable port pressures in the gas guns than some of the slower powders do.

Again, if you have trouble getting accuracy from a ball powder, try deburring the flashholes. Try the CCI #41 primers or try Remington or Federal or CCI benchrest primers before giving up. Dan Newberry's OCW recipes are here {link fixed}. You can read other parts of his site to learn the criteria they have to meet. Note they require using Winchester cases in the .223 loads, as well as most others.
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Last edited by unclenick; 04-29-2013 at 08:13 AM. Reason: Link fixed
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Old 06-08-2008, 05:47 AM
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"Rocky has pointed out before that Stoner designed the M16 to be used with IMR4198, which is wonderfully accurate with bullets up to 55 grains in the .223"

That's an interesting comment. Is there a repository of information that shows other powder/cartridge design considerations? What about a 25-06 or 7mm Rem Mag?
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Old 06-08-2008, 06:57 AM
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Not that I'm aware of. I'll bet if you looked back at Ackley's work and at other wildcat's histories, you would find the creators had specific powders in mind at least some of the time. Be a good project for someone to research. It'd also be likely that better powders have come along since, for a number of them, but having the original as a starting point for load development would be good information.
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  #19  
Old 06-10-2008, 03:13 PM
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I shoot 26.5gr 748, any 52gr Match bullet (I usually use the SMK), in a Winchester or LC case, and a CCI primer. Out of a 1:9 barrel, I get little tiny groups at 200 yards if there is no wind, or if the wind is from behind.

If a .223 rifle will shoot at all, it will shoot with this.

CDD
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Old 06-11-2008, 01:47 AM
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I like those 52 grain pills too!
I've gotten my bets accuracy at the 200 line with them. I use the Hornaday.
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