The web's most comprehensive user-interactive handloading database! Find the loading data created by handloaders, for handloaders, post your pet loads, or access and develop your own online loading database with our LoadNotes personal handloading database software. This feature, unique in its concept and intuitive in it's data presentation is fast to access, superbly organized and comprehensive in scope.Our online forums for questions and answers on many shooting and outdoor related topics. A dynamic, active, and well-informed resource for your enjoyment and interaction. Our most used resource on this website! Come share the experience with us!
» Advanced

Go Back   Shooters Forum > Handloading > Handloading Procedures/Practices
Register FAQ Members List Donate Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read



Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-13-2008, 11:59 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 1,150
.35 Remington full power load data sources?


Registered Users do not see the above ad.


Are there any published sources of load data for the .35 Remington that bring the cartridge up to true potential in the Marlin 336.



Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-14-2008, 04:08 AM
bsn bsn is offline
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Western VA
Posts: 1,360
http://www.loadswap.com/display.php?...ifle_Cartridge
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-14-2008, 05:32 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: S.W. N.C.
Posts: 863
"...load data for the .35 Remington that bring the cartridge up to true potential in the Marlin 336."

If by "true potential" you mean overloads, don't bother looking for a legitimate authority to recommend it, you won't find any.

Just poke in what ever turns you on and shoot it on your own authority, same as for any other cartridge.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-15-2008, 10:11 AM
baer19d's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Savannah, Ga
Posts: 123
I load mine with Varget and the Lee load data has I believe 40gr as the max load. I'm loading mine with 37gr and it feals almost the entire case so even though it doesn't say it 40gr may be a compressed charge and I don't think you can't get muck hotter than that.

Last edited by baer19d; 12-15-2008 at 10:14 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-15-2008, 12:17 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,408
If you heard a collective gasp from the Forum itís because we donít quite know how to take a post like yours. It not what you asked but how you asked it.
Below are a few links dealing almost exclusively with +P loading for the 35 Remington. All except the last are from the Marlin Owners Forum and the last is from the 24-Hour Campfire.
Remember that Ken Waters wrote of accidents with +P loading the 35 Remington over 40 years ago. +P load levels for the 35 Remington must be treated like a wildcat cartridge as there is no pressure tested load data available and the rifle manufacturer does not warrant his product for this type of load.
I shoot lever action rifles chambered for the 356 and 358 Winchester cartridges so I have followed these threads with more than casual interest.

http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/i...c,33254.0.html

http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/i...ic,7584.0.html
http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/i...c,15410.0.html
http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/i...c,15458.0.html
http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/i...c,18317.0.html
http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/i...ic,5522.0.html
http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/i...ic,1698.0.html
http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/i...ic,2041.0.html
http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/i...c,22893.0.html
http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/i...c,26606.0.html
http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/i...c,15231.0.html
http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/i...c,10778.0.html
http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/i...ic,6843.0.html
http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/i...c,13176.0.html
http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/i...ic,1563.0.html
http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/i...ic,2221.0.html
http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/i...c,13072.0.html

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthr.../1#Post1101642
__________________
slim
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-15-2008, 12:22 PM
Rocky Raab's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Utah
Posts: 3,321
Thank you, William. I could not reply without getting sarcastic, bombastic or just...rude-astic.
__________________
To see my books and articles, just Google my name.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-15-2008, 01:31 PM
The Troll Whisperer (Moderator)
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Mesa, Arizona
Posts: 19,329
That's why as a Moderator, I have to bite my tongue on posts like this. Pretty sure I knew what Ralph was asking, but the only sources for .35 Rem loads I have are what is published in the various manuals plus my own handloads. Hesitate to share my handloads for the reason you mentioned - no pressure testing available.

What's safe in mine may be an overload in yours.
__________________
NRA Benefactor Member
NRA Certified Police Firearms Instructor
NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
NAHC Life Member

"Firearms only have two enemies - rust and politicans" author unknown
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-15-2008, 03:03 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,408
Rocky, I am a slow study but I am learning about words and their affect in print. This post tightened the muscles in my back and I wondered about the intent. The discussions of +P loading for the 35 Remington gives me more cause for concern than any similar discussion of the .30-30 Improved. Loading for both cartridges deserve cautious debate. Ken Waters words of caution are still floating around in my thoughts.

Marlin and Hornady have given the hunting lever-gunner a great gift with the introduction of the 308 and 338 Marlin Express cartridges. These two cartridges effectively render the 30-30AI and the +P loading of the 35 Remington obsolete.

I wish Winchester was still in the game as I believe enthusiasts such as we have on the Beartooth board could develop an interesting rivalry between the two rifle brands and cartridges. The sad truth is that Winchester-USRA was never: “in the game.”

I am a fan of the medium capacity cartridges because of their lighter recoil and their “Killability” (Horace Kepharts word – I am thinking of the Campfire thread) on the size of game most of us hunt and at the distances where we typically shoot game. There is a lot of interest from hunters on the various medium capacity cartridges and a young gunwriter would do well to take notice and direct his writing efforts toward this interest. This is especially true with regard as to their effective range where a great deal of misinformation exists. I keep expecting to see one of the frequent internet posters break into print as current gunwriters are not really meeting the need with regard to plain speaking.
__________________
slim
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-15-2008, 04:16 PM
MikeG's Avatar
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 26,492
I use Varget in my .35 Rem loads, and yes, I do go over the SAAMI spec loadings. No issues in my .35. I do have the luxury of bending the ear of a fellow that has pressure testing equipment as a sanity check.

Varget is slow enough it would seem extremely difficult (won't ever say impossible) to get too much in the case. Let's just say you'd really have to work at it.

That's my preference for powder - use at your own risk. Normally you can't go more than a couple of grains over the posted max, due to case capacity issues.

That's how I see it. Good luck Ralph.
__________________
MikeG

Quote:
Originally Posted by faucettb
Welcome to the forum. Rules are simple, be nice and join in.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-15-2008, 04:33 PM
Rocky Raab's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Utah
Posts: 3,321
That's precisely why I didn't reply, William: I couldn't hear myself over all the alarm bells ringing.

Neither the 35 Rem cartridge nor the Marlin rifle are built to be hot-rodded. And if one did, what would he have? An overstressed short-range gun. No, the whole concept is as pointless as cramming a Corvette engine into a Geo Metro.

I'm a proponent of medium-power, medium-capacity cartridges. I'm also a fan of classic rounds that lived up to their designers' concepts by doing a workmanlike job with no muss or fuss. The 35 Rem fits that bill perfectly. It's a woods round for deer and black bear. It goes "blam" and there's meat in the freezer. It doesn't have to belch flames, reverberate to the next county, or launch bullets so fast their jackets peel off from air friction. It's a delight to shoot - as is.
__________________
To see my books and articles, just Google my name.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-15-2008, 06:54 PM
MikeG's Avatar
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 26,492
Well..... not to take offense (it's never the wrong thing to do to stay within published boundaries and usually the only safe thing).... but the .35 Rem is one instance where the max pressures are way below what the gun can stand on a routine basis. Sort of like the large frame Rugers and the .45 Colt.

SAAMI spec for the .35 Rem is in the low 30,000 CUP range, and nearly everything else chambered in the 336 is in the 40,000CUP range. I think it should be a fairly obvious conclusion that loading a .35 Rem to the 40,000 CUP range is hardly going to shatter a 336 into pieces. The difficulty is, finding data that is reliable for the pressure levels you are comfortable with.

MOST other cartridges - with the exception of the .45 colt, which I also run over SAAMI spec in my Rugers (but using published data), I too would think poorly of hot-rodding.

Just one of those things we all have to decide for ourselves.
__________________
MikeG

Quote:
Originally Posted by faucettb
Welcome to the forum. Rules are simple, be nice and join in.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-16-2008, 05:04 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: S.W. N.C.
Posts: 863
"Well..... not to take offense (it's never the wrong thing to do to stay within published boundaries and usually the only safe thing).... but the .35 Rem is one instance where the max pressures are way below what the gun can stand on a routine basis."

Mike, what you say is true but, IMHO, almost irrelivant for the .35 cartridge if not the rifle. I mean, no matter how hard we kick out those round (or flat) nose bullets at the muzzle, little of that extra velocity will remain at 200 yards so we'll get precious little benefit. And that little done at the expense of hammering the 336 itself.

As it is, both the .30-30 and .35 are lethal on deer within 200 yards, and larger animals inside 100. The rifle is a woods gun, never expected to be a bean field rifle, so those ranges seem sufficent. What more could anyone reasonalby expect of it? Normal pressure loads for the .35 seem to get about all the cartridge is routinely capable of so why push it harder?

Anyone who wants to shoot a bigger gun should buy a bigger gun, not beat a 336 to an early death.

Last edited by ranger335v; 12-16-2008 at 05:08 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-16-2008, 06:04 AM
MikeG's Avatar
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 26,492
You are having to hold over a bit with factory .35 Rem loads to reach 200 yards. A bit more velocity fixes that.

"Beating a 336 to death" - if that's done at 40,000 CUP, then every single person who uses a .444, .450 Marlin, even the .30-30, is doing exactly the same thing - with factory loads.
__________________
MikeG

Quote:
Originally Posted by faucettb
Welcome to the forum. Rules are simple, be nice and join in.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-16-2008, 06:30 AM
Rocky Raab's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Utah
Posts: 3,321
Ranger echoed my point. Mike, my objection to going beyond published and tested data is that unless you own pressure gear, you have no idea if you are within the gun's 40K design limit. You only know that you are beyond 30K.

The original post referred to the 35 Rem's "true potential." What is that? Is it the equivalent of the 356 Win? the 358 Win? the 350 Rem Mag, the 35 Whelen? If you want one of those, just buy one. But if you own a 35 Rem, load it to 35 Rem specs. And if you expect shots at 200 yards, practice enough at 200 yards that you simply and instinctively hold over just the right amount.
__________________
To see my books and articles, just Google my name.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-16-2008, 06:42 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Laramie, WY
Posts: 817
Amen, Rocky. This thread brings to mind the old saw, "Dance with the one who brought you."

Here's why I say that. The .35 Remington and the 336 Marlin go back a long way in time. The factory ammo, component bullets, and the rifle design have long ago been married by the industry to bring out the true potential of the .35 Remington. Handloaders can tweek that a little to meet special needs (cheaper practice ammo, cast bullets, etc.) that aren't available commercially. But to look for some greater potential is to deny that the engineers and technicians that developed the standards for commercial ammo somehow didn't know what they were doing.

Factory ammo and "book" loads for my .35 Remington/336 work just fine. When I want greater potential I reach for my .35 Whelen/M700 Classic.

To close with another metaphor: The .35 Remington is already a silk purse, not a sow's ear, just the way it is.
__________________
WyoStillhunter
"Hunt close, then get closer."
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-16-2008, 08:11 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 548
Perhaps the reason the "industry" decided on 30K CUP was for the purpose of mild recoil given an increase in caliber over the .30-30 ... just a thought. The action is sound to 40K CUP, but as Rocky pointed out ... how do you know when you exceed it without pressure testing? Venture at your own risk.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-16-2008, 09:45 AM
MikeG's Avatar
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 26,492
More likely married to the semi-auto rifle that Remington introduced it in. Considering the popularity of the .45-70 in that day and age, I doubt recoil was an issue in general.

And yes, I do know someone who is doing pressure testing on .35 Rem loads.

I guess you guys disapprove of Ruger-level .45 colt loads, Marlin-level .45-70, etc? What about the .44 special? I'd guess there are a number of reloaders here loading it past SAAMI specs....
__________________
MikeG

Quote:
Originally Posted by faucettb
Welcome to the forum. Rules are simple, be nice and join in.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-16-2008, 10:27 AM
Rocky Raab's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Utah
Posts: 3,321
I have used upper-end 45 Colt loads, and I have even developed load data from scratch for new cartridges. But in the 45 Colt, I used tested data developed by the labs. For the new rounds, I either used pressure=testing gear or did not publish loads that seemed iffy to me.

If you can measure pressure, you can do almost anything you choose. That means MEASURE, not guesstimate. One can also use lab-developed data, with the same cautions and caveats as with normal reloading. Many cartridges have such data, clearly noted in the manuals.
__________________
To see my books and articles, just Google my name.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-16-2008, 02:47 PM
MikeG's Avatar
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 26,492
I guess what gets me in this thread is that we have many members, who are using none-standard bullets, and loading them just fine with a little common sense and use of tools such as a chronograph. As an example, Beartooth is selling many WFN and LFN bullets that are specifically made to increase case capcity over jacketed bullets of the same weight.

When you start loading those you are exceeding SAAMI specs for OAL and the published load data is now null and void. It probably won't get you into trouble, but it's definitely no longer correct.

Same with the fellas that use the AI cartridges.

For both of these examples, the reloader has to extrapolate or estimate the data as best they can, and make some reasonable assumptions as to what will happen. Also, we have some pretty neat software such as Quickload. Not that I trust computers completely - been working on them too long.

The tools are there and we are advocating going outside the boundaries of published data in other threads on this forum, with many other cartridges and guns. I'm just not sure why it's such a great sin with the .35 Rem?????

__________________
MikeG

Quote:
Originally Posted by faucettb
Welcome to the forum. Rules are simple, be nice and join in.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-16-2008, 03:23 PM
KenK's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Georgia
Posts: 2,288
What I think is; if you want to push the envelope push it. It seems like it would be wise to know just what exactly you are pushing against though.

It seems to me that some folks looking for data are wanting someone else to do the work and (maybe) take some of the responsibility.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Remington Factory Load, 35Rem, Which Powder Boltman Marlin 336 Lever Guns 5 09-22-2008 03:28 PM
Looking for load data for the 9.3x62 mauser hntr33806 Handloading Procedures/Practices 15 08-15-2008 06:35 PM
hornady load data .223 rem ihuntbuck Handloading Procedures/Practices 4 05-30-2008 02:49 PM
.223 Remington Load Data AZ223 Handloading Procedures/Practices 2 10-29-2005 09:35 PM
Energy Supplier Trouble at Remington Ilion, NY Contender General Discussion 2 09-28-2005 03:55 PM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 09:33 PM.

< Contact Us - Shooters Forum - Archive >

 
 

All Content & Design Copyright © 1999-2002 Beartooth Bullets, All Rights Reserved
View Privacy Policy | Contact Webmaster | Legal Information
Website Design & Development By Exbabylon Internet Solutions
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2