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  #1  
Old 06-08-2009, 02:46 PM
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2 types of 4198 powder?


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Hmmm, I managed to snag the only can of rifle powder in my local store, Hodgdon H4198. For rifles I plan to reload .223 Rem (AR-15) and bolt action 6mm Rem.

Some load researching took me to the Hodgdon site, and there I find 2 types of 4198. One is IMR and the other is Hodgdon. Did Hodgdon buy IMR and reformulate it or something? Or are they really 2 completely different powders?

In the burn rate chart they are next to each other right about in the middle of the chart, yet load data for the .223 Rem specifically states IMR 4198 for a 69 gr. SPBT and does not have a H4198 load listed. I do want to load for these 69 gr. bullets.

I didn't know there were 2 types of 4198 when I bought this and merely remembered the # 4198 from research, but now that I have it can I merely replace IMR 4198 with H4198 when building loads? Or are they different enough in some what that they're not interchangable? Where loads using both powders are listed the IMR seems to be a couple of 10ths of a grain less (e.g. 18.8 gr instead of 19.0).

Surely there are some .223 Rem reloaders out there that have run across this before, right?...
Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 06-08-2009, 03:15 PM
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H4198 isn't made by IMR. Current production is made by ADI in Australia and early production may have been by Nobel of Scotland. I haven't used H4198, so I can't help you with load data. Apparently they are closer than some of the IMR - Hodgdon pairs.

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  #3  
Old 06-08-2009, 03:28 PM
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The new H4198 is very close to being what I consider a "meterable" stick powder.

It meters better than Varget, which is a huge improvement over the old stuff. It's a shorter cut.

EDIT: I just realized I answered a question you weren't asking.
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  #4  
Old 06-08-2009, 03:29 PM
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Yes, I believe that Hodgdon bought the IMR powder line.....
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  #5  
Old 06-08-2009, 04:08 PM
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Stratmeister, long-ish ago Hodgdon went looking for powder manufacturers to build powder for them. One of the things they wanted was for someone to duplicate the military powders that they used to get from the gov't, blend for lot-to-lot consistency, and re-sell to the public. They were also trying to compete with other canister powder sellers, of course.

So, there were H-xxxx powders that were similar to, but different from, the DuPont IMR-xxxx powders. Much later, Hodgdon bought the IMR powder company. So, they were left with powder 'twins.' Think of them as fraternal twins (i.e. NOT identical). In my own mind, it didn't make much sense for Hodgdon to buy IMR (they also bought the right to distribute and use the name Winchester for powders. AFAIK those are still all made in FL at the plant which Olin spun off a decade-ish ago), unless they wanted to consolidate and eliminate one of the twins in each example (i.e. eliminate either the IMR or H versions of 4198, 4895, 4350, etc.).

However, it seems that the powder-buying public wasn't impressed with the thought of losing either the IMR or the H versions of the various powders, so they've kept them both, so far.

Generally speaking the IMR and H powders are close, but are NOT interchangeable. I'd think that 4198 was on the fast side for that heavy a bullet anyway, but give it a go. I'd probably back off a grain-ish from the IMR-4198 data and try that? Starting with starting loads, of course.
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Old 06-08-2009, 05:37 PM
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The ball powders are made by what was the Winchester plant in Florida. I don't remember if it ever made tube or flake powders. Some of the Winchester and Hodgdon powders show identical data. Winchester 760 and H414 in the .30-06 have identical charge weight, velocity and pressure. IMR 4350 and Australian H4350 are not identical in grain shape or performance in my experience.

IMR powders are made by SNC Tec, in Quebec, Canada. They are a subsidiary of General Dymanics.
http://www.companylisting.ca/Expro_T...c/default.aspx

Is the old Winchester plant now St. Marks Powder?

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Old 06-08-2009, 05:54 PM
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I've forgotten the name of the company that appeared when Olin spun off the plant in FL. I've read it several times, but it doesn't stick.

To be clear: I wasn't addressing any of the powder pairs other than the IMR-xxxx/H-xxxx pairs. I agree that Hodgdon was buying W760 and W296 (others, too?) from Olin and putting a Hodgdon label and number on them for a long time. The H-xxxx powders are different, IMO, because they were never re-labels that I know of. Rather, they were an effort by Hodgdon essentially to get a powder manufacturer to duplicate an existing product, as I understand it.
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Old 06-08-2009, 06:24 PM
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I think that's the way it happened. One powder that really changed around is H322. It was originally IMR 8208 which was one of the first powders for the .223. Long story about .223 - M16 powders here:
http://www.thegunzone.com/556prop.html

Hodgdon marketed surplus 8208 as H322 until the supply got low, then got Nobel of Scotland to make a replacement that was still called H322. Nobel quit making powder so Hodgdon got ADI of Australia to make it. Then ADI came out with their Extreme technology, so there's been four different H322 powders sold. The current stuff is not the powder that set all the benchrest records. Occasionally a batch of pulled-down 8208 shows up and the old benchresters fight over it.

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Old 06-08-2009, 07:08 PM
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I thought it was Primex, in St. Marks, Florida, that made the Winchester / Olin ball powders....
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  #10  
Old 06-09-2009, 05:49 AM
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Great info, thanks all.

So, basically it seems with my H4198 I have a powder that I can use for small projectiles in the .223 Rem, but not appropriate for larger bullets or for any 6mm Rem loads. Of course there is a load for the 69 gr. bullets I have using the IMR version...

Low and behold, my new Lyman book showed up from UPS last evening so I have a modern reloading manual now. That will certainly help. According to that book IMR-4350 is THE powder to use for the 6mm Rem, but IMR-4064 will work in both calibers with heavier projectiles.

Now all I have to do is find some place that has powder for sale... oh yeah, and rifle primers...
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  #11  
Old 06-09-2009, 05:50 AM
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I use both H4198 and IMR 4198 in my 223. I load 21.5 grains of each with a 55 gr bullet and they shoot the same, under .5 in. I am glad to learn that about IMR8208. I have several pounds of that powder and was not sure how to use it. I guess I can use H322 data.
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Old 06-09-2009, 06:37 AM
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Specifically regarding the two 4198 powders, they are indeed "fraternal twins." (GREAT phrasing, MZ5!) They even look different.

I4198 is composed of very thin longish rods, looking much like broken up "leads" for fine drafting pencils. It is shiny black, brittle and extremely difficult to measure out or pour through small case necks.

The current H4198 is a yellowish green color, in very short kernels, almost as short as their diameter. It measures and flows almost as smoothly a ball powder.

Burning rates are very close to one another, and it would be entirely safe to substitute START-level data one for the other. Maximum charges might differ appreciably, however. If case volume is limited, the H version would be much better suited, as it would "settle" much better that the I version.
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