» Advanced

Go Back   Shooters Forum > Handloading > Handloading Procedures/Practices
Register FAQ Members List Donate Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read



Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-01-2009, 09:22 PM
MZ5's Avatar
MZ5 MZ5 is offline
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 1,720
Cooler-burning powders near 4350 or 7828?


Registered Users do not see the above ad.


I've just acquired a very lightly used 6.5 WSM rifle for which I must handload. In other cartridges, I like to use Winchester ball powders because, IME, 748 and 760 don't seem to heat up my barrels as fast as at least some of the single-base propellants. Win has always claimed 748 burns cooler, too, so I guess I'm saying my experience appears to bear that out some.

So, does anyone know of 'cooler-burning' powders in the general burn rate range of the 4350s to 7828, H-1000, etc? I've used H-1000 before, but nothing else in that burn rate to compare it to. Thoughts? Thanks.

P.S. My reason for wanting to do this is two-fold: First, I'd like to not heat the barrel quite to quickly. Secondly, though, it that I'd like to mitigate barrel wear/erosion. I don't intend to load this thing all the way up to 65k psi like the WSMs normally are. I intend to try to stick with a rough cap of somewhere more like 55k psi, using QuickLOAD to help me w/pressure predictions.
__________________
"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have." --Gerald Ford
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-01-2009, 10:59 PM
unclenick's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hilliard, Ohio
Posts: 10,936
I remember Winchester's old ads on the topic showing something like 4500 degrees at the peak verses 5000 degree plasma. My memory may be wrong on the numbers, but it seems to me it was in that ballpark at peak pressure? I think that can happen with small ball powder grains because their progressivity is dependent entirely on retardant penetration into the grain to keep the gas evolution rate growing despite the remaining grain surface area diminishing as the burn progresses. It works pretty well until the remaining grain gets really small and the inevitable switchover to digressive burning occurs past the pressure peak. Not a lot left at that point, so it can't keep the pressure constant. But the shrinking area probably explains why the temperature, which is energy production rate dependent might be lower?

I don't know who else's powder might behave like that? I expect any very fine grain rifle speed ball powder will tend to, but you'd need a lab to measure that? Perhaps you're just going to have to call the other ball powder makers and see if their techs can tell you?
__________________
Nick
__________________________
Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member
"First contemplation of the problems of Interior Ballistics gives the impression that they should yield rather easily to relatively simple methods of analysis. Further study shows the subject to be of almost unbelievable complexity." Homer Powley

Last edited by unclenick; 07-01-2009 at 11:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-02-2009, 07:53 AM
Rocky Raab's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Utah
Posts: 3,321
If you like the WW Ball powders, you might try their new W780 -- presuming you can find any.
__________________
To see my books and articles, just Google my name.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-02-2009, 11:22 AM
MZ5's Avatar
MZ5 MZ5 is offline
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 1,720
~500 degrees was the figure I had in my head for some reason as the advertised difference betwee Winchester's ball powder vs. other types.

I wondered about the Supreme 780. It's supposedly about the same bulk burn rate as the 4831s, so that'd probably be a pretty good fit for the lighter bullets. I don't recall having seen it at any shops here before, but I could be wrong. Do you happen to know whether it's a St. Marks product? I was thinking I'd heard it was Swedish or something.

I've called Alliant, Hodgdon, and Ramshot/Accurate today. Ramshot's tech was out, so I'll try him back later. Hodgdon's tech was very pleasant but, as usual for me & Hodgdon, he told me things that were in direct conflict with the data published on Hodgdon's site, as well as seeming rather silly on their face. Alliant's guy really didn't know the answers to my questions, but at least he told me so. He was also very friendly. I'm not even gonna bother trying Kaltron (Viht). They've been utterly unhelpful in all respects both times I've contacted them before.

Thanks for the info and feedback.
__________________
"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have." --Gerald Ford
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-02-2009, 12:34 PM
Jack Monteith's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 7,788
Winchester WXR was the extruded powder that Winchester marketed around 2001. IIRC it was around about the H4831 - Reloder 22 burning rate. 780 is a ball powder.

http://www.wwpowder.com/rifle.html

Bye
Jack

Last edited by Jack Monteith; 07-02-2009 at 10:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-02-2009, 01:34 PM
MZ5's Avatar
MZ5 MZ5 is offline
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 1,720
Well, I went down to the one local shop that I don't like to go to, but they did indeed have some Supreme 780. It says "Made in USA" on the label, so I picked up a pound to try.

Thanks for the info re: WXR, Jack. QL has info for WXR, but doesn't have any on Supreme 780, so I'll have to just go with .264 Win Mag starting loads from Hodgdon and work with it.

As an aside, I looked at several bottles of IMR4198 and it all says "Made in Australia" on it now. A couple other IMR rifle powders still said "Made in Canada." I hadn't realized that they'd moved all 4198 production/sourcing to ADI.
__________________
"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have." --Gerald Ford
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-02-2009, 02:49 PM
The Troll Whisperer (Moderator)
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Mesa, Arizona
Posts: 19,872
With Hodgdon owning IMR now, there's no telling where the next batch will come from.
__________________
NRA Benefactor Member
NRA Certified Police Firearms Instructor
NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
NAHC Life Member

"Firearms only have two enemies - rust and politicans" author unknown
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-02-2009, 10:39 PM
Rocky Raab's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Utah
Posts: 3,321
WXR was in fact re-packaged RL-22, and was only in the line long enough to fill a void until they could get Supreme 780 developed. Winchester has had singularly bad luck in trying to develop powders slower than W760. We all hope they finally make it with 780.
__________________
To see my books and articles, just Google my name.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-03-2009, 07:36 AM
MZ5's Avatar
MZ5 MZ5 is offline
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 1,720
Indeed I do hope so. The marketing claim is that Supreme 780 is what Winchester Supreme brand factory ammo is loaded with in a number of cartridges. I probably just don't know any better, but I usually like Win Supreme factory ammo. I don't think this will really be slow enough for heavier bullets, but it should do well for lighter ones.
__________________
"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have." --Gerald Ford
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-03-2009, 07:52 AM
flashhole's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Owego, NY - USA
Posts: 2,975
You might give Hodgdon Retumbo a look also. I use it in my 7mm Rem Mag and 25-06. I did notice that is seems to be "cooler" than either H-1000 or IMR 7828 and I get better accuracy with it too.
__________________
Remember - always have your democrats neutered or spayed - Ann Coulter
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-03-2009, 09:21 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Northern New York
Posts: 374
I don't know about heat, but I have used RL-22 for years and have been satisfied in the 25-06, even the .257 weatherby. However, when I went to H-1000, my feet per second went up over 200 more. I would suspect that all things equal, slower is cooler. Burn rate that is. Just quessing.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-03-2009, 10:18 AM
unclenick's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hilliard, Ohio
Posts: 10,936
Don't like hearing that IMR 4198 is now the same as H4198. The original has proven exceptionally accurate for me in several .22's.

I believe Reloader 17 comes from Switzerland? It's the only relatively new Euro-powder that I am aware of?

Incidentally, Winchester Supreme ammunition has the record for charge weight consistency among all the rounds I've pulled over the years. I had occasion to pull bullets on 20 rounds of their .308 match ammo loaded with 168 grain boattails. The powder was what appeared to be 748 and the charge weight was consistent with that. The extreme spread was an astonishing 0.05 grains on the lab scale. Whatever other issues you may have with them regarding ignition, ball powders really do meter more accurately than anything else.
__________________
Nick
__________________________
Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member
"First contemplation of the problems of Interior Ballistics gives the impression that they should yield rather easily to relatively simple methods of analysis. Further study shows the subject to be of almost unbelievable complexity." Homer Powley

Last edited by unclenick; 07-03-2009 at 10:22 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-06-2009, 10:20 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 154
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%"><TBODY><TR bgColor=#6c566a><TD class=header colSpan=2>Hunter</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#d6bdad><TD class=infobox vAlign=top>Hunter is the new powder in the Ramshot line and is the perfect spherical powder for medium caliber rifles. Hunter meters great, is clean burning, and produces outstanding velocity in traditional medium caliber cartridges and the new Winchester Short Magnum family of cartridges. Ramshot hunter performs consistently throughout a wide range of temperatures making it a perfect powder for your hunting loads.</TD><TD class=header rowSpan=8 width=140></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#d6bdad><TD class=header></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#efdece><TD class=infobox>Ideal Calibers:</STRONG>
.270 Win, .223 WSSM, 7mm WSM, 270 WSM, 300 WSM</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#d6bdad><TD class=header></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#efdece><TD class=infobox>Bulk Density (grams/liter) 950</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#d6bdad><TD class=header></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#efdece><TD class=infobox>Packaged in 1lb. and 8lb. containers.</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#d6bdad><TD class=header></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-07-2009, 10:11 AM
MZ5's Avatar
MZ5 MZ5 is offline
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 1,720
Thanks for bringing that up, Steve4102. As it happens, I got through to the Ramshot ballistician yesterday. He told me that, based on the Hornady 129-gr. SST I have right now (more weights and sizes are on the way) and my fired case capacity, Ramshot Magnum would be the best powder choice. He did ask whether there was a powder I had on-hand or wanted to use. I told him I had a very small amount of Hunter, but would need to buy more powder anyway so I was open to all suggestions.

For the sake of posterity if anyone else ever reads this thread in the future and has this cartridge, the load range he gave me was 59.9 gr. -- 66.5 gr. of Ramshot Magnum. I asked about any Accurate powders, but he said that Ramshot Magnum was the best choice for this specific combo.

I also asked him about burn/flame temperatures, on account of a desire to do my best at getting maximum life out of my barrels (I told him this question was in general, rather than specific to only this cartridge). He said that there may be very minor temperature differences within their powder lines, but not enough to notice.
__________________
"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have." --Gerald Ford
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cleanest powders dbooksta Handloading Procedures/Practices 19 06-12-2009 08:53 AM
Powders for 9mm and 45 acp Marshhawk Handloading Procedures/Practices 3 03-03-2009 06:17 AM
Which are densest powders? Naphtali Handloading Procedures/Practices 5 01-06-2009 06:43 PM
Dazed and confused about powders cali-newbie Handloading Procedures/Practices 19 02-20-2008 06:19 PM
445 powder selection cptmclark Handloading Procedures/Practices 7 01-12-2008 12:28 PM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:50 PM.

< Contact Us - Shooters Forum - Archive >

 
 

All Content & Design Copyright © 1999-2002 Beartooth Bullets, All Rights Reserved
View Privacy Policy | Contact Webmaster | Legal Information
Website Design & Development By Exbabylon Internet Solutions
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2