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  #1  
Old 04-22-2011, 04:24 PM
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Chamber sizes


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Have read and been told the case most be fired in the same chamber un less it is full length re sized. I understand this and why.
Other than the reason that it may not chamber in another rifle is there any other firm reason for this.
I have a rifle that leaves no shoulder on the case. Like some one had started to go for a wild cat or 303 EPPS and did not finish it. No shoulder at all, just a straight drop off.
I have discontinued the use of this rifle but have some loaded rounds that were neck sized only.
This case "will" chamber in two of my other Enfields, and when fired will push the shoulder back to normal shape.
ALL my rifles are in good working condition. Even the one with the no-shoulder chamber.
Is there any reason why this case should not be fired in another chamber that cycles it all the way through? Thanks for any help.donald fs
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Old 04-23-2011, 03:42 AM
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I guess I don't get ya. How is a case with no shoulder chambering in your other enfields. they should headspace in the shoulder right? I understand you can fire form brass but usually there is a shoulder there your just changing the angle and mouth. IMO throw the brass away and take the rifle to a gunsmith that can tell you what is going on in the rifle. How did you aquire this rifle, I would consider bringing it back
EDITED brain fart forgot the enfield is rimmed

Last edited by barthowes; 04-23-2011 at 05:31 AM.
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  #3  
Old 04-23-2011, 04:18 AM
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Even if it is rimmed, the 'straight' case should not enter the .303 chamber. What is the bore diameter on this rifle? I would suggest a chamber cast. The .303 was wilcatted quite a bit in the Commonwealth countries.

Sam
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Old 04-23-2011, 05:41 AM
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POST SOME PICS OF BRASS.. If there is no shoulder and the brass in a straight taper the bullet diameter is not .311 or its not a .303 British chamber. pull a bullet and measure it.
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Old 04-23-2011, 07:20 AM
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Sorry for not wording properly. It is 311. it does have a shoulder. just doesn't have an angle. A straight step down. #1 mk111* 1917 LSA British Enfield. "SMLE". Re Arsenaled in 1953.donald fs
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  #6  
Old 04-23-2011, 07:25 AM
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Guess I'm with the others. Although the British .303 headpaces off the rim I don't understand how a bigger neck will fit into the british chamber. Also fireforming expands the case to the chamber size, you can't fire form to a smaller dimension. If the case is long enough you can run it though a .303 sizing die and reform a shouldered neck back into it, providing that is what the rifle is chambered for.

Best advice is determine what the rifle is chambered for and if it's .303 British, buy new cases for it.
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  #7  
Old 04-23-2011, 07:46 AM
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Sounds like it might be some kind of .303 Improved. Still suggest a chamber cast to determine exactly what you have.

Sam
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  #8  
Old 04-23-2011, 07:46 AM
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It has a 303/ 311 neck/mouth diameter. It doesn't havd an angle to the shoulder.
Is that so hard to under stand. The rest of the case is tapered same as any other 303 case. I'll try to find the pics if I can post them. donald fs
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  #9  
Old 04-23-2011, 07:56 AM
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See if this works



dfs



Last edited by donald fs; 04-23-2011 at 07:58 AM.
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Old 04-23-2011, 08:00 AM
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The one in the middle is regular.

Some one on another forum tried to say it was the die adjustment, My rifle doesn't have a die in the chamber. This is the way it comes out of the chamber donald fs
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  #11  
Old 04-23-2011, 08:11 AM
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It appears to have a square shoulder, or a nearly 90 shoulder. If so, such a round might chamber in a gun with a normal shape, leaving a gap between the case and the chamber until fired.

It might be possible to simply run in a correct reamer and clean up that odd shoulder, but only some careful measurements of a cast would tell. But it also appears that the case is "blown out" a bit to reduce body taper. If so, re-reaming wouldn't work.

Or, if you have dies for it, just load and shoot it as-is. As I read the original post, though, you have only a few loaded rounds. It may come down to weighing the cost of custom dies versus a new barrel. I'd bet that a good used barrel would be the best and cheapest option.
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Last edited by Rocky Raab; 04-23-2011 at 08:14 AM.
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  #12  
Old 04-23-2011, 08:14 AM
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I have fired the rifle many times. neck sized only for 6 or more times before full length sizing and the case still holds up for several more firings.
Like I said in an earlier post, I have dis continued the use of this rifle.

My original question was and still is about firing a case from one chamber in another chamber, If it will chamber in that other chamber. I will not be spending any $$'s on this rifle, I have another of the same. 1944 Ishapore. #1 mklll* That has the right chamber. I have used parts from the LSA on the Ishy to put it in shooting condition.

The cartridge reminded me of the EPPS, but the regular 303 case body taper is still there. donald fs
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Old 04-23-2011, 08:19 AM
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I guess the way I would say it is that the shoulder is a 90 angle off the centerline or that it has a 180 included angle. It looks, though, as if the corner is well rounded at the wide end of the shoulder, kind of like a Weatherby case. I expect you are correct that this is a wildcat attempt.

I'd still take the suggestion to make a shoulder cast if you want to use it again. Then get a sizing die made just for that chamber.

The use of brass in just one gun is for two reasons, accuracy and case life. If you shoot the brass in one chamber, you can set the shoulder back just the necessary amount to feed reliably, and that maximizes both factors. If you resize the cases from your largest chamber so they fit again in the smallest chamber, you are working the brass more and wearing it out sooner. Sometimes you find brass from a really big chamber can't be resized to fit a tight chamber without resorting to a small base die, and that works the brass even more.

The accuracy advantage comes from the brass fitting the chamber more snuggly so the bullet is held nearer to the centerline of the bore. If you want real maximum accuracy from a case, try resizing the neck in one step with a Lee collet die, then setting the shoulder back just barely 0.001" or so with a Redding body die. Another approach is to use a Forster Bushing Bump Die for both neck and shoulder. For reasons I don't understand entirely, the benchrest crowd has some members claiming that setting the shoulder back 0.001" each time is more accurate than neck sizing alone. Some freedom of movement for self-centering may be helpful. I don't know a solid explanation for this observed effect.
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Last edited by unclenick; 04-23-2011 at 08:24 AM.
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Old 04-23-2011, 08:25 AM
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The proper answer is to fire only the correct ammo in a given gun. That includes sizing method.

In this instance, is cartridges are more or less interchangeable between this odd chamber and a normal one, it ought to be safe even if case life , velocity and accuracy might suffer.

As a general answer, I have been unable to see any difference whatever between cases neck or FL sized - in the same gun. But I have two Rem 788 rifles in .223, and cases fired in one and neck sized chamber tightly in the other. Or done in the reverse, the case is excessively loose. FL-sized cases chamber normally in both, so I always FL size my 223 brass.
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  #15  
Old 04-23-2011, 08:46 AM
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Unclenick

I have a Gibbs 2A1 and with any thing above mid range loads the chamber is so large after firing the case will not even go into the die. I have fired managed recoil and starting loads and it seems the case doesn't even swell any at all. these loads I have necked sized seven times before full length sizing then fired 3 more so far and not through yet.

Rocky Rabb
I have about 40 rounds of these cases loaded with the lower range starting loads. If I could fire them in my other rifle and bring the shoulder back out. Then I wouldn't have to pull the bullets and waste the primers. I know, primers not that much.

Actually the only part I have used off it is the mag. The Ishy didn't have one. But what would one expect for $90.00

I'll be shooting my $400.00 1903A3 soon. A Greek return.donald fs
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Old 04-23-2011, 09:41 AM
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Considering that the .303 headspaces on the rim I would keep using the rifle. Necksize the cases with a LEE collet die and keep them separate from your other cases. If your cases are fireformed to this chamber there shouldn't be a problem.
Thats how Roy Weatherby and P.O. Ackley started making their cases and people fireform everyday for hard the find cartridges.

Sam

Last edited by Brasso01; 04-23-2011 at 09:45 AM.
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  #17  
Old 04-23-2011, 10:17 AM
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When I first started firing and had several firings before full length sizing I was thinking that full sizing and bringing the neck back out it would have cracked or at least weakened the shoulder. Didn't do it
have fired some more than 3 times after full length sizing once. I thought about just neck sizing till the cases can take no more, just to see how far they will go.

By the way, cases used were Winchester and Remington. donald fs
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Old 04-23-2011, 10:44 AM
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Donald,

As a general rule of thumb, cartridges loaded to under around and about 30,000 psi won't stick to the chamber wall and don't stretch back at the head. They also spring back to shape better. I'm guessing that's what you're seeing.

I'd probably ask Lee, Redding, RCBS or whoever made your sizing die and see what they wanted to look at a couple of full pressure fired cases from the Gibbs and see what they want to open up a standard sizing die to fit. It might take nothing more than a little extra radius at the mouth. Indeed, a Dillon die might already have that. They make theirs generous for their progressive reloading machines.

It occurs to me to mention that even if you use standard dies on that funny Enfield chamber, if you anneal the necks and shoulders frequently, they could keep working for a lot longer than expected.
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  #19  
Old 04-23-2011, 10:52 AM
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Thanks Unclenick.
I'll look into both.donald fs
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Old 04-23-2011, 11:07 AM
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The picture does give the illusion of the case being puffed out right there at the neck/body.
My caliper said no.
Thanks every one.donald fs
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