The web's most comprehensive user-interactive handloading database! Find the loading data created by handloaders, for handloaders, post your pet loads, or access and develop your own online loading database with our LoadNotes personal handloading database software. This feature, unique in its concept and intuitive in it's data presentation is fast to access, superbly organized and comprehensive in scope.Our online forums for questions and answers on many shooting and outdoor related topics. A dynamic, active, and well-informed resource for your enjoyment and interaction. Our most used resource on this website! Come share the experience with us!
» Advanced

Go Back   Shooters Forum > Handloading > Handloading Procedures/Practices
Register FAQ Members List Donate Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read



Like Tree5Likes

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 5 votes, 4.80 average. Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-01-2011, 05:14 PM
Jakeway's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 549
IMR4350 vs. H4350


Registered Users do not see the above ad.


I just read in another post that IMR4350 has been changed to be just like H4350. I hadn't heard that. I use IMR 4350 in quite a few loads. Can anyone verify that IMR 4350 has changed?

Does anyone know when the change happened? I need to buy more powder soon, and I suppose I will have to re-test powder charges to see if I need to tweak the loads a little.
__________________
It's not rocket surgery, for crying outside!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-01-2011, 06:01 PM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Idaho
Posts: 6,824
My understanding is that H bought I, several years ago. Both product lines have been available, but from a business standpoint, makes sense to consolidate offerings that are close in performance, and maybe that's what they're doing.

Honestly, I don't know if the change has happened yet as far as manufacturing (or if that change is happening at all), but stocks of both will likely be available for awhile as inventory gets bought up.

Recipes with the two powders are different for various cartridges. A review of 300 WM and 300 Wby show 1-2 grains difference in the Hornady 5th edition manual. Around 2% difference. Any barrel/chamber/brass/primer combo makes this insignificant when working up loads, as everyone should do.
__________________
NRA Endowment Member
SCI Member
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-01-2011, 06:06 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mooresville, IN
Posts: 8,756
The difference between H4350 and IMR4350 has always been just barely enough that you'd have to work up a new load, if you went from one to the other. (Not so with their versions of 4831.)

Hodgdon owns the IMR line and has standardized the 4350 offerings with a single product, which happens to be their "short cut" variety. It is quite different than the original IMR4350, insofar as it meters much better and is not nearly so temperature sensitive, yet is still suitable for the same range of applications. This change happened sometime in the last year or two, although I can't seem to locate the press release for it, right now.

Suffice to say, if you've been using IMR4350 and need to pick up another pound of it, be prepared to do a little load workup before you presume it will work exactly the same as the older stuff.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-02-2011, 02:01 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 244
http://www.hodgdon.com/msds.html

Last edited by 243winxb; 12-12-2013 at 05:41 AM. Reason: added Link to MSDS
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-02-2011, 03:19 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mooresville, IN
Posts: 8,756
Here is a comment from Sierra's exteriorballistics website that explains how 4350 is sold under three different brand names, but it's all the same powder.

exterior ballistics

"We also now have a situation wherein powders having the “same” numerical designation are available from several different sources. Probably the best example of this is the slow-burning single-based rifle propellant known as 4350. Available now as the original IMR 4350, Hodgdon’s H4350 and Accurate Arms’ 4350, the potential for confusion is obvious."

Also, if you click on the MSDS sheet for either IMR4350 or H4350, you are directed to the exact same page:

MSDS

AR2209 is H4350, is IMR4350, is AA4350...all the same powder, made in the same plant, packaged in different containers. Read the MSDS, if ya don't believe me.

http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/MSDS%20...ders/H4350.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-02-2011, 08:17 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 5,854
I just picked up Hornady's 8th edition reloading manual. Looking at the burn rate chart I see A4350 is 109th on the list while IMR and Hodgdon's 4350 is is 112 and 113 th respectively.

Looking at 280 Rem data which lists all three powders, max loads with their 162 grain bullets are....
A4350 = 48.3 grains
IMR 4350 = 50.4 grains
H4350 = 49.5 grains

Seems to be enough difference to me I wouldn't call them identical. Still probably close enough to be considered the same when comparing different lot variations.
__________________
Still Learnin' as I go!

NRA Life Member
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-03-2011, 03:49 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mooresville, IN
Posts: 8,756
Monty,

Differences that small can be attributed to different lots of the exact same powder...which H4350 and IMR4350 happen to be, at this point.

With the perpetual caveat that you back off 5 or 10% and work up carefully, load data for AR2209, H4350, IMR4350 and AA4350 can be used interchangeably.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-03-2011, 06:00 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,919
The same has apparently happened with Win 760 and H414. Hodogon owns Winchester powders now too. Win 760 and H414 now have identical data (at least they did the last time I looked).
__________________
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-03-2011, 09:14 AM
M1Garand's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,241
Yep, they are the same powder.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-03-2011, 10:12 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 617
In Hodgdon yearly reloading manual 2011 they doesn't list the same amount of powder H-4350/IMR-4350 in their data. Some of the data is close other big spread and the burn rate in that manual they have IMR-4350 (112) and H-4350 (113).

I get on Hodgdon/IMR site every so often and so far haven't seen any press release from them on changes to IMR-4350. You can do a search and find all kinds of post about the two but nothing from IMR.

I use both powders and I've found some difference not so much groups more velocity some of it been very small other bigger gap. I got 2 8lb's of each same lot #'s and I run Hodgdon data in the 30-06's.

I'm sure if and when they do make changes we will hear it first for the company.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-03-2011, 01:21 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 217
I have been loading both the I and the H for years and can't tell them apart on paper or in the crono
frhunter13 likes this.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-03-2011, 05:37 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mooresville, IN
Posts: 8,756
Quote:
Originally Posted by old roper View Post
In Hodgdon yearly reloading manual 2011 they doesn't list the same amount of powder H-4350/IMR-4350 in their data. Some of the data is close other big spread and the burn rate in that manual they have IMR-4350 (112) and H-4350 (113).

I get on Hodgdon/IMR site every so often and so far haven't seen any press release from them on changes to IMR-4350. You can do a search and find all kinds of post about the two but nothing from IMR.

I use both powders and I've found some difference not so much groups more velocity some of it been very small other bigger gap. I got 2 8lb's of each same lot #'s and I run Hodgdon data in the 30-06's.

I'm sure if and when they do make changes we will hear it first for the company.
Not to belabor the point, but if you click on the IMR4350 MSDS link I provided in my earlier post, you will see that it is a link from the IMR website. It takes you to an MSDS document for AR2209, which is H4350.

I'm not sure how to be any more clear, but they are all the same powder, made in the same plant in Australia. Just like H414/W760 and H110/W296. In short, there aren't quite as many "different" powders out there as you might think.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-03-2011, 07:34 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 617
Quote:
Originally Posted by broom_jm View Post
Not to belabor the point, but if you click on the IMR4350 MSDS link I provided in my earlier post, you will see that it is a link from the IMR website. It takes you to an MSDS document for AR2209, which is H4350.

I'm not sure how to be any more clear, but they are all the same powder, made in the same plant in Australia. Just like H414/W760 and H110/W296. In short, there aren't quite as many "different" powders out there as you might think.

I didn't look at your MSDS link have no reason to. I reload using manuals and in my rifles using Hodgdon-4350 and IMR-4350 I get a difference period end of subject.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-03-2011, 07:46 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 1,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by old roper View Post
I didn't look at your MSDS link have no reason to. I reload using manuals and in my rifles using Hodgdon-4350 and IMR-4350 I get a difference period end of subject.
Is that you, God? I've been waiting to hear from you.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-03-2011, 08:32 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 244
These are the same powder & company ADI in AUSTRALIA- AR2209 is H4350.
IMR is made in Canada. Different powders, different company, different countries, different burning rates.

Last edited by 243winxb; 12-04-2011 at 06:48 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-03-2011, 09:50 PM
Gyroboy01's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: mn, MN
Posts: 534
Hodgdon web page

This page is the reason I use a lot of Hodgdon powders, Data us available quickly and easily for comparison.

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-04-2011, 03:12 PM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Idaho
Posts: 6,824
Easy now....even if recipes are 'the same' between H, I, & A, there are bound to be differences in manufacturing locations. Whether that has to do with slight differences in mix components, or how reactions take place when manufactured in different elevations or humidity conditions, there will be differences.

If you're always loading on the upper end of recipes, probably best to work up new loads with new lots anyway. No different than loading between different names of the 'same' powder.
__________________
NRA Endowment Member
SCI Member
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-04-2011, 03:15 PM
MikeG's Avatar
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 26,933
Right. Suppliers change over the years and I bet folks would be surprised at how often that occurs. It is probably amazing that the companies keep things as consistent as they do.

I'd vote that H4350 and IMR-4530 are quite close, based on my experience. But it is a fact that H4831 is slower that IMR-4831, and the old WWII surplus 4831 was noticeably slower than either.

Anyway, work up your loads with pressure-tested data that is current to the production of the powder you are working with. That's a good rule to follow no matter what products you have on the shelf.
__________________
MikeG

Quote:
Originally Posted by faucettb
Welcome to the forum. Rules are simple, be nice and join in.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-04-2011, 05:25 PM
The Troll Whisperer (Moderator)
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Mesa, Arizona
Posts: 19,696
Sound advice above.

Even though the powder designations may be the same, there will be slight differences unless the manufacturers verify the duplication.

Since I rarely load to max for any cartridge the slight variations of 4350 and 4831 brands can be used interchangeably in my loads with good results, although I do carefully chrono and visually check the cases on firing when changing loads.
__________________
NRA Benefactor Member
NRA Certified Police Firearms Instructor
NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
NAHC Life Member

"Firearms only have two enemies - rust and politicans" author unknown
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-04-2011, 05:32 PM
Jakeway's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 549
Wow. I didn't expect to get this kind of emotional responses.

My last pound of IMR4350 is almost gone, and I'm about to try different bullets for my 270, so I may as well switch powders, too. I like the idea of less sensitivity to temperature changes. I do most of my load developemnt in the summer (too busy deer hunting in fall and coyote hunting in the winter) in upper 90 temps, but it's frequently below freezing in December rifle season here in Tennessee.
__________________
It's not rocket surgery, for crying outside!

Last edited by Jakeway; 12-04-2011 at 05:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
H4350 and Woodleigh 350gr PP SN TexasSasquatch Handloading Procedures/Practices 2 01-10-2011 09:04 PM
H4350 vs. IMR-4350 Davers Handloading Procedures/Practices 11 01-06-2011 08:33 AM
H4350 powder charge for 25-06 100 grn. Sierra MatchKing p5200 Handloading Procedures/Practices 14 10-19-2010 06:40 AM
IMr 4350 and H4350 Rugerfan0374 Handloading Procedures/Practices 8 09-12-2010 04:50 PM
H4350 or IMR 4350 tpv Handloading Procedures/Practices 20 10-22-2007 08:39 AM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:33 PM.

< Contact Us - Shooters Forum - Archive >

 
 

All Content & Design Copyright © 1999-2002 Beartooth Bullets, All Rights Reserved
View Privacy Policy | Contact Webmaster | Legal Information
Website Design & Development By Exbabylon Internet Solutions
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2