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  #1  
Old 01-04-2012, 05:54 AM
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New Win Brass Vs once fired


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I have come up with a good load for new win brass for my 308 that is shooting .3 to .5 groups so all is good. I then run out of new brass and reload the once fired brass for the first time and its all over the place.

I understand that the volume of the case has increased by about 4% due to fire forming, but is there a way to calculate the change to adjust the powder, or do I have to start the load workup all over again.

New to this and just trying to understand it.

Thanks for any and all comments and suggestions.

Chris
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  #2  
Old 01-04-2012, 06:37 AM
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I would look first at the dies & how they are adjusted. Make & type of dies used?
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  #3  
Old 01-04-2012, 07:10 AM
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I am using lee and Redding dies. I have checked for concintricity, shoulder hieght, case OAL and all is consistant and within tolerances. The only factor I can attribute the difference is the case volume, as all prep is identical with the exception of neck sizing vs full length sizing the new cases.

New win brass lot of 250 ranges from 54.6 to 56.3 gr of water weight, the once fired brass is from 56.4 to 58.6 gr water weight.

The new brass load is 43.5 GR varget which is on avg 79% capacity of the cartrige, can I assume from that that I should use 79% case volume for the charge and have to increase the charge on the once fired cases to about 45.4 gr of varget to get the same results, or do I need to do work up on the once fired brass again?

it makes sense, but not sure if im on the right track.

Is there anyone else having these kind of issues from taking the same load from new to once fired brass?

Thanks

Chris
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  #4  
Old 01-04-2012, 07:14 AM
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A program like Quickload can help find the sweet spot again, or you can just load up some small increments and see how it goes. There are rules of thumb for small case capacity changes, but off the top of my head I do not know for sure what they are.

Your old load may have been in a sweet spot that was part of a very narrow band. That can spell trouble with temperature / environment changes. You might want to see if you can find a broader sweet spot.

Suggested reading:

Dan Newberry's OCW Load Development System
Techshooters Shooting Pages
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  #5  
Old 01-04-2012, 07:23 AM
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I sure am glad that I got my start in reloading prior to computers. i had to do things the old fashioned way.
When I buy bulk new brass for the 30-06, usually Winchester, the same goes for 25-06, I do a fire form using cast bullets using a powder I have a bunch of and want to use up.
After I clean and resize the cases get trimmed to length, neck thickness uniformed, primer pockets uniformed. Now I'm ready to do my testing.


Jim
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  #6  
Old 01-04-2012, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
all prep is identical with the exception of neck sizing vs full length sizing the new cases.
You have just found the problem.
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  #7  
Old 01-04-2012, 07:47 AM
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What is the problem??? You lost me 243winxb?

Can you explain a little more what the problem is, I think you are saying neck sizing vs full lenght sizing is the problem, but how can that be, the tightness of the neck is identical, and all other factors are identical, case lnght, prep and the only variance is the neck vs full lenght sizing, i dont understand what you are saying?????

thanks,

chris
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  #8  
Old 01-04-2012, 07:53 AM
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Limited,
You need to buy a reloading book(Lee, Speer, etc.) and read the information before the load data.
The difference as stated is the sizing operations.
Full length sizing squeezes the ENTIRE case the full length, back to SAAMI minimum spec. This also causes the case to grow in length, so be sure to check and trim if needed. The neck sizing operation ONLY squeezes the neck diameter back into spec, NOT the case.
So the neck sized cases will have a larger capacity than full length sized stuff.
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  #9  
Old 01-04-2012, 08:02 AM
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Darkker,

I have read 3 manuals already and understand the case capacity is larger due to neck sizing and fireforming but the cartridge is now fire formed to my chamber. The neck tension is the same, the primer pocket prep is the same, the case length is the same, the shoulder height is the same, the powder and bullet lots are the same, so the only difference in the case is the capacity due to fire forming the case, but all prep is identical for new vs once fired.

My question is, is there a calculation to adjust for the larger case capacity, or do I have to do a full load workup again, as the smaller capacity load that shoots well, does not shoot well in the fire formed brass?

Thanks for all the comments

Chris
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  #10  
Old 01-04-2012, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
the cartridge is now fire formed to my chamber.
Most chambers are not in perfect alignment to the bore. When the brass is only neck sized, it remains out of alignment. FL sizing lets the reload find its own center in the chamber. Another problem with neck sizing, if the bolt face is not square to the bore, accuracy & even chambering a round may be a problem. FL size with the Redding body die (if using one), neck size with the Lee Collet die, but only size about 1/2 of the neck. Lee has instruction on there web site how to do this. Not for Auto, bolt only, or single shots.
Quote:
My question is, is there a calculation to adjust for the larger case capacity, or do I have to do a full load workup again, as the smaller capacity load that shoots well, does not shoot well in the fire formed brass?
Post asking for "QuickLoad" help.
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  #11  
Old 01-04-2012, 09:34 AM
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If the bullet tips don't wobble when you roll the loaded rounds across a tabletop, then you haven't hurt anything by neck sizing.

You are just going to have to work your loads back up.
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  #12  
Old 01-04-2012, 10:30 AM
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Most of the time I get my best groups from cases that have been fired in my rifle's chamber and then neck-sized or partially sized in a F/L die. You are getting a different result, but the solutions are fairly obvious, don't ya think?

Work up the charge again and/or bump the shoulder back a few thousandths with a full-length die. Try 10 of each; one or the other is bound to solve the problem. This just illustrates how easy it is for a small change to have a big impact on how a certain load combination performs. The more you reload, the less you'll fret about small stuff like this.

Be sure to get back to us once you've determined the root cause and the solution.
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  #13  
Old 01-04-2012, 11:08 AM
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after reloading is complete i am running them through concentricity gauge to square them up, but they are only off by .001 to .003 off straight out of the seating die. I am also checking the brass on the concentricty gauge after sizing to be sure they are square and round and have even checked just before and after the shoulder on the loaded shells and there is nothing off by more than a .001 or so. From all this, I know the final production is round, I know the neck tension is the same, I know the prep is the same, so the only difference is the internal capacity.

I guess there is not an easy formula, so back to the drawing board.

Thanks all for your help

Chris
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  #14  
Old 01-04-2012, 01:15 PM
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Limited71, It does not make sense to me either, you load new cases, then, you full length size the cases and start over, both new and full length sized cases are = to minimum length/full length sized. I have rifles that shoot one hole groups with factory, over the counter,new ammo, I have rifles that shoot patterns (like shotguns) I have built rifles that shoot groups that move with different bullets, powder and cases but never spread, I have purchases rifles for parts guns that were so ugly I took the back roads to the firing range, after running 12 different loadings in groups of 5 found there was/is nothing I can do to improve on the accuracy, so, I applied the 'leaver policy' I decided I would leaver the way I founder.

As to difference? fire forming when compared to anything and everything else? Others chamber a round and fire then eject the case and proclaim them self fire formers. I chamber a round, fire then eject once fired cases, difference? I measured the length of the case from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber before firing and then again after firing, the difference? is the effect the chamber had on the case when fired. Again, I measure the length of the chamber first, measuring the length of the chamber eliminates the need for me to become an accomplished fire former because I form first then fire, and that requires the reloader to keep up with more than one thought at a time. No Cheerios, Wheaties, cereal or filler.

I am not able to bump, as in bump the shoulder, the case head is connected to the case body, the case body is connected to the shoulder, the shoulder is connected to the neck 'of the case', and my dies, are not stackers, my dies are one piece dies and when sizing, everything is relative, because of my case/die configuration I am able to erase the shoulder and form it further forward, or further back but I am not able to bump.

Relative as to head of the case to the case body to the case shoulder to the case neck I find it very manageable to control the amount of sizing or effect the die has on the case when sizing, I use a feeler gage to set the gap between the bottom of the die and shell holder. Just for a matter of convenience I find the feeler gage a great (transfer for standard) way transfer measurements.

F. Guffey
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  #15  
Old 01-04-2012, 04:16 PM
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seems like an awful lot of talk on such a simple solution,243winxb gave the answer to the problem.
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  #16  
Old 01-04-2012, 04:23 PM
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No, no, no. You DON'T re-work loads because of neck sizing vs. FL sizing, and users of QuickLOAD who have read the manual know that you use fired brass capacity, never new or FL-sized capacity.

Given what you've stated thus far, and what has apparently been checked and verified or corrected, it could be something that's been overlooked even though it's been checked or corrected. Or, it could be something else.

I'd anneal some of the brass and reload it, and check that accuracy against un-annealed brass and see how the groups compare.
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  #17  
Old 01-04-2012, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 243winxb View Post
Most chambers are not in perfect alignment to the bore. When the brass is only neck sized, it remains out of alignment. FL sizing lets the reload find its own center in the chamber. Another problem with neck sizing, if the bolt face is not square to the bore, accuracy & even chambering a round may be a problem. FL size with the Redding body die (if using one), neck size with the Lee Collet die, but only size about 1/2 of the neck. Lee has instruction on there web site how to do this. Not for Auto, bolt only, or single shots. Post asking for "QuickLoad" help.
Very well said 243winxb.
I full length resize everything I reload for the simple reason, that "every" time I have neck sized or partial resized my cases, accuracy has suffered.
The one thing that I see missing from the original post, and subsequent posts from the OP is the measuring of fired/unsized cases. I think this might be a bit revealing.
Hope this helps, Ron.
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  #18  
Old 01-05-2012, 07:56 AM
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“I have come up with a good load for new win brass for my 308 that is shooting .3 to .5 groups so all is good”

“New win brass lot of 250 ranges from 54.6 to 56.3 gr of water weight, the once fired brass is from 56.4 to 58.6 gr water weight”

In my opinion, before everyone falls over each other with all the ‘one’ answer that covers it, starting over would be a better ideal.

Limited71, the next time you purchase 250 new Winchester cases for load development save 10 cases with the intentions of never firing them, I would have measured the case length first from the head of the case to it’s shoulder and compared the case length the the chamber length from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber. When firing some chamber designs I am forgiven for all mistakes, other chamber design are not so forgiving.

Anyhow, if the new, factory Winchester brass produced great .3 to .5 inch groups what did you expect to accomplish by changing anything, the fact you did not save a few of the new cases leaves you with starting over, you have nothing to compare the fired cases with. The answer as to the difference between new, once fired, fired, fire formed, formed, neck sized, partial case body/necked sized cases is time, time is a factor. By friends, I have been accused (it has been suggested) some of the stuff I do is ‘risky stuff’, and I say ‘time is a factor’. I do not use up all the space between the bullet and rifling just because I can, I want my bullets to have a running start, I want my bullets to have ‘jump’, I do not seat bullets to the lands, because ‘time is a factor’.



F. Guffey
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  #19  
Old 01-05-2012, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Limited71 View Post
after reloading is complete i am running them through concentricity gauge to square them up, but they are only off by .001 to .003 off straight out of the seating die. I am also checking the brass on the concentricty gauge after sizing to be sure they are square and round and have even checked just before and after the shoulder on the loaded shells and there is nothing off by more than a .001 or so. From all this, I know the final production is round, I know the neck tension is the same, I know the prep is the same, so the only difference is the internal capacity.

I guess there is not an easy formula, so back to the drawing board.

Thanks all for your help

Chris

Chris, Most reloader tune their load to fired cases vs new cases same neck sizing vs FL sizing on fired cases.

I can't tell you with would shoot better you have to try both neck and FL some just FL and happy with their groups.

I've separate cases on H2o capacity but it's on new unfired cases so if I neck size or FL I have the same capacity and I'm sure some may have + - they use on new cases. I've never seen a forumla.
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