I have been emailing Maroontoad this morning and we were discussing the 35 Whelen and 9.3 X 62. I have experience loading for the Whelen and enjoy shooting it. I don’t hunt heavy bodied game so the 356 and 358 Winchester are more than enough cartridge for me.
The subject of bullet construction, expansion and penetration always enter into these discussions. I wrote that I find the 358 a better killer on white tail deer than the 45-70 and the 444 Marlin. On our light frame deer the 45-70 does not have a lightly constructed bullet which will both open up and penetrate with rear end shots. The 350-grain hollow point just will not move up through the intestines, penetrate the diaphragm and punch the lungs. Heavier bullets, whether cast or jacketed, are constructed too strongly and the deer, while dead on its feet, run too far after they are hit. The Lyman 457322HP Gould bullet is a good compromise if cast soft enough to expand. The NEI solid nose, gas check version of the Gould bullet when cast soft enough to upset, may be just a bit better than the hollow point bullet. I find the 322-grain (more like 380-grain when cast soft) Gould bullet to kill quicker than the express bullets such as the 457191 300-grain bullet intended for the 45-90. It could be pointed out Elmer Keith admonished us: “Don’t shoot the steaks.“
I have problems if wounded deer get off our land and on public land another hunter finding our deer before we do, may well put his tag on it.
The 444 Marlin with the 240-grain pistol bullets kill our little deer quickly with lung shots, often dropping them in their tracks. The 270-grain Speer Gold Dot is a good compromise with regard to penetration and balancing velocity potential from my short barrel Timber Rifle with expansion and penetration.
The LBT bullets perform well in the 444 Marlin providing good tissue disruption and deep penetration, even at modest velocities. 260- to 320- grain .44 caliber bullets seem to be at their best in my short barrel Winchester. The LBT bullets seem to perform best for me when cast moderately hard, above 18 BHN. The LBT bullet does not need to expand to deliver its energy and penetrates beyond all expectations.
The LBT style bullet transfers more energy to the game animal than the semi wadcutter or round nose style cast bullet. A comparison of the .35 caliber 200-grain RCBS cast bullet and my 180-grain LBT styl bullet has demonstrated the superiority of the weight forward, wide meplat, LBT bullet to me for light frame deer and pigs.
The 356 and 358 with the 200-grain bullets drops deer quickly and leaves an excellent blood trail. Odd thing about blood trails, there is a good blood splash at the site where the deer is hit. The deer then jumps and runs with very little blood on the ground or in the grass until between 30- to 40-yards is covered. Then the deer begins to leak large splashes of blood with every bound.
Someone needs to write a magazine article about cartridge and bullet selection along these lines. A discussion of cast bullet performance on deer would begin a great discussion. Francis Sell, Elmer Keith and a few others have written descriptive articles on killing power and bullet performance. Sell wrote articles on trailing and finding wounded deer and he may written the classic article: “So, you missed…” I’ll check that one out and see who the author was.
There is a point here somewhere,.My question is: What are your experiences with how deer react when hit?
I prefer to hunt close with modest velocity cartridges - under 2,500 fps muzzle velocity.
I have compared modest velocity cartridges to high velocity cartridges and I believe I prefer bullets at modest velocity for deer hunting - admittedly I am shooting close.
I would enjoy reading the experiences of others in regard to blood trails and following up deer which have been well hit.
I have discussed this with Maroontoad who hunts buffalo, camels and donkeys in tough terrain. You drop the animal in its tracks or you have a tough follow up. Snow likes spine and neck shots. I prefer body shots.
The subject of bullet construction, expansion and penetration always enter into these discussions. I wrote that I find the 358 a better killer on white tail deer than the 45-70 and the 444 Marlin. On our light frame deer the 45-70 does not have a lightly constructed bullet which will both open up and penetrate with rear end shots. The 350-grain hollow point just will not move up through the intestines, penetrate the diaphragm and punch the lungs. Heavier bullets, whether cast or jacketed, are constructed too strongly and the deer, while dead on its feet, run too far after they are hit. The Lyman 457322HP Gould bullet is a good compromise if cast soft enough to expand. The NEI solid nose, gas check version of the Gould bullet when cast soft enough to upset, may be just a bit better than the hollow point bullet. I find the 322-grain (more like 380-grain when cast soft) Gould bullet to kill quicker than the express bullets such as the 457191 300-grain bullet intended for the 45-90. It could be pointed out Elmer Keith admonished us: “Don’t shoot the steaks.“
I have problems if wounded deer get off our land and on public land another hunter finding our deer before we do, may well put his tag on it.
The 444 Marlin with the 240-grain pistol bullets kill our little deer quickly with lung shots, often dropping them in their tracks. The 270-grain Speer Gold Dot is a good compromise with regard to penetration and balancing velocity potential from my short barrel Timber Rifle with expansion and penetration.
The LBT bullets perform well in the 444 Marlin providing good tissue disruption and deep penetration, even at modest velocities. 260- to 320- grain .44 caliber bullets seem to be at their best in my short barrel Winchester. The LBT bullets seem to perform best for me when cast moderately hard, above 18 BHN. The LBT bullet does not need to expand to deliver its energy and penetrates beyond all expectations.
The LBT style bullet transfers more energy to the game animal than the semi wadcutter or round nose style cast bullet. A comparison of the .35 caliber 200-grain RCBS cast bullet and my 180-grain LBT styl bullet has demonstrated the superiority of the weight forward, wide meplat, LBT bullet to me for light frame deer and pigs.
The 356 and 358 with the 200-grain bullets drops deer quickly and leaves an excellent blood trail. Odd thing about blood trails, there is a good blood splash at the site where the deer is hit. The deer then jumps and runs with very little blood on the ground or in the grass until between 30- to 40-yards is covered. Then the deer begins to leak large splashes of blood with every bound.
Someone needs to write a magazine article about cartridge and bullet selection along these lines. A discussion of cast bullet performance on deer would begin a great discussion. Francis Sell, Elmer Keith and a few others have written descriptive articles on killing power and bullet performance. Sell wrote articles on trailing and finding wounded deer and he may written the classic article: “So, you missed…” I’ll check that one out and see who the author was.
There is a point here somewhere,.My question is: What are your experiences with how deer react when hit?
I prefer to hunt close with modest velocity cartridges - under 2,500 fps muzzle velocity.
I have compared modest velocity cartridges to high velocity cartridges and I believe I prefer bullets at modest velocity for deer hunting - admittedly I am shooting close.
I would enjoy reading the experiences of others in regard to blood trails and following up deer which have been well hit.
I have discussed this with Maroontoad who hunts buffalo, camels and donkeys in tough terrain. You drop the animal in its tracks or you have a tough follow up. Snow likes spine and neck shots. I prefer body shots.