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bullet performance on deer

12K views 46 replies 22 participants last post by  Crusty Ol'Coot 
#1 ·
I have been emailing Maroontoad this morning and we were discussing the 35 Whelen and 9.3 X 62. I have experience loading for the Whelen and enjoy shooting it. I don’t hunt heavy bodied game so the 356 and 358 Winchester are more than enough cartridge for me.
The subject of bullet construction, expansion and penetration always enter into these discussions. I wrote that I find the 358 a better killer on white tail deer than the 45-70 and the 444 Marlin. On our light frame deer the 45-70 does not have a lightly constructed bullet which will both open up and penetrate with rear end shots. The 350-grain hollow point just will not move up through the intestines, penetrate the diaphragm and punch the lungs. Heavier bullets, whether cast or jacketed, are constructed too strongly and the deer, while dead on its feet, run too far after they are hit. The Lyman 457322HP Gould bullet is a good compromise if cast soft enough to expand. The NEI solid nose, gas check version of the Gould bullet when cast soft enough to upset, may be just a bit better than the hollow point bullet. I find the 322-grain (more like 380-grain when cast soft) Gould bullet to kill quicker than the express bullets such as the 457191 300-grain bullet intended for the 45-90. It could be pointed out Elmer Keith admonished us: “Don’t shoot the steaks.“

I have problems if wounded deer get off our land and on public land another hunter finding our deer before we do, may well put his tag on it.
The 444 Marlin with the 240-grain pistol bullets kill our little deer quickly with lung shots, often dropping them in their tracks. The 270-grain Speer Gold Dot is a good compromise with regard to penetration and balancing velocity potential from my short barrel Timber Rifle with expansion and penetration.
The LBT bullets perform well in the 444 Marlin providing good tissue disruption and deep penetration, even at modest velocities. 260- to 320- grain .44 caliber bullets seem to be at their best in my short barrel Winchester. The LBT bullets seem to perform best for me when cast moderately hard, above 18 BHN. The LBT bullet does not need to expand to deliver its energy and penetrates beyond all expectations.
The LBT style bullet transfers more energy to the game animal than the semi wadcutter or round nose style cast bullet. A comparison of the .35 caliber 200-grain RCBS cast bullet and my 180-grain LBT styl bullet has demonstrated the superiority of the weight forward, wide meplat, LBT bullet to me for light frame deer and pigs.
The 356 and 358 with the 200-grain bullets drops deer quickly and leaves an excellent blood trail. Odd thing about blood trails, there is a good blood splash at the site where the deer is hit. The deer then jumps and runs with very little blood on the ground or in the grass until between 30- to 40-yards is covered. Then the deer begins to leak large splashes of blood with every bound.
Someone needs to write a magazine article about cartridge and bullet selection along these lines. A discussion of cast bullet performance on deer would begin a great discussion. Francis Sell, Elmer Keith and a few others have written descriptive articles on killing power and bullet performance. Sell wrote articles on trailing and finding wounded deer and he may written the classic article: “So, you missed…” I’ll check that one out and see who the author was.

There is a point here somewhere,.My question is: What are your experiences with how deer react when hit?
I prefer to hunt close with modest velocity cartridges - under 2,500 fps muzzle velocity.
I have compared modest velocity cartridges to high velocity cartridges and I believe I prefer bullets at modest velocity for deer hunting - admittedly I am shooting close.
I would enjoy reading the experiences of others in regard to blood trails and following up deer which have been well hit.
I have discussed this with Maroontoad who hunts buffalo, camels and donkeys in tough terrain. You drop the animal in its tracks or you have a tough follow up. Snow likes spine and neck shots. I prefer body shots.
 
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#2 ·
WI I have found myself in a similar quandry & question as yourself. For 20yrs I hunted 3 states in various terrains with the majority of that time spent hunting in long range situations (150-200yds on the shortside with 250-400yds being the norm "preferred" & several possibilities existing for 500+yds quite frequently). For those years I began with the 30-06 as a youngster but by the end of that time I had a 270, 280, 7mags, 300Wby & the last 6yrs were spent primarily with the most re-assuring of my long range arsenal, my Sako Lazzeroni Warbird. (essentially "point & click" anywhere inside of 500yds)

But that all changed suddenly in 2006, I didnt hunt again until 2010 when I bought a beautiful cypress swamp/hardwood bottom farm here in west TN. So I've essentially taken a 180 in tactics, distances & "decision to shoot times". The true trophy class bucks in my swamp have rather large bodies for the area as well. My youngest son & I killed 2 bucks lastyear that were live weighed at the processors at 220#s & the last buck my youngest killed the last week of season was a fat 190#s as well.

The 2010 season was really both of my sons (& a best bud of my youngest sons as well) first crack at deer hunting so I didnt really put any limits on them. They shot does & toy bucks nearly every trip out. Their 243s with 85grn Xbullets performed flawlessly.

Then lastyear they became a liitle more selective (easy for a kid to do if they see alot of deer each trip & know the deer they are looking at right now isnt the last they might see for days or the rest of season). The 220# (21" 120" 6pt) I took at 45yds with my Savage mzl ldr. The 250grnSST broke the near shoulder & knocked the bigboy down. He got back up & ran 90 degrees heading for a river 40yds away! He stopped 2steps from the riverbank, his knees wobbled & then he dropped. (I then began to breath again, had he jumped in the river it wouldve swept him to oblivion!) the bullet didnt exit & no blood trail existed.

Exactly 2wks later, same stand, deer in same spot, my son nailed the 220# 125" 8pt with his 243. (was juvie gun wknd). The little xbullet broke the near shoulder, knocked the buck too his front knees. Rather than spin & head for the water the buck instead bolted straight away, head down, dragster quick takeoff, bull thru whatevers in its path "aka the death run"! I am pretty sure I heard him fall in the near dusk dimness. He didnt bleed a drop & he made it 80-85yds before crashing into a brushpile.

A month later same son nails the 190#er (115"ish 8ptr) in shoulder at 100yds. The buck staggers & trips 15yds to lay in tall grass in 1ft of water on a slough bank. We arrive a few minutes later & UP he bounds away! Again one broke shoulder, no blood but 15mins later I found him laying 70yds away & to weak to run. He stood up & I finished him.

(the does & couple of smaller bucks killed during this same span were simple BOOM & get the knife out endeavors)

I've been mainly a Barnes "full penetration with exit & bloodtrail Stevie Wonder could follow" desciple for years. The Savage was the only thing I wasnt shooting Barnes in because when I bought my ML2 in 03 the SSTs & N110 powder were one of the few tried & true loads on the books at that time. Plus I never killed any large bodied deer with it in the 2yrs I used it before losing access too those 3 state traNcts I was hunting. (I now have 300grn Barnes MLs waiting for nextmonths opener!)

I also have a 35 Marlin that I bought a box of the heavy 220 Buffalo Bores for earlier this year. But honestly the gun is an heirloom from my grandfather so I'm rather picky of the conditions & times I wish to carry it. So both my oldest son & I both decided on Marlin 1895 45-70s thus summer! His a GORGEOUS 1895STBL edition & mine the traditional 1895G model. My son chose the 325 Leverevos but I on the other hand have a STOUT box of 300X Buffalo Bore (2200fps).

I'm like you, I demand FULL penetration & if that requires a TX heartshot at 200yds then so be it! I also desire BOTH shoulders be taken out when given a broadside chance. I fully expect these 300X bullets to rip them stem2stern! As I said, I've shot ALOT of deer with the other calibers with Xbullets & save for the 243, I've never recovered a bullet or lost an animal with those bullets. As for my youngest son, his 243 was retired & this fall he will be shooting a 7600 7-08 with 120xbullets. If the first deer he shoots doesnt have 2 holes in it, he will be shooting 140s the very next day!

My place has ALOT of water on it, 2.5miles of river boundary, 2 oxbows that comprise appx 40acres, several sloughs that add up too another few miles of water & of course during a wet early winter, the entire place will nearly flood. So its imperative that we DROPEM asap or they at least bleed ALOT in a short time because if they run over 50yds in any direction, they are likely to cross water. I know I could dropem where they stand with any of my big bolt guns but those heavier guns with their big scopes & long barrels just arent as convienient for tight quarters & snapshooting in my swamp. I'm REALLY anxious to see how my Guidegun performs & handles down there. I really think its just what I've been looking for!

Will be interesting to hear your experiences after this season. I'll likely relay mine as they play out.

Sorry for the long post but maybe you can see why I feel we're in a "similar boat",
HL
 
#3 ·
My experience is that anyone who thinks he knows how a deer will react to any given shot from any given cartridge needs to shoot more deer. You can't predict any specific situation. You can make some very broad generalizations, perhaps, but every situation will be different. Direct CNS shots may be the exception.

I think LOTS of wounded animals escape because someone believes a hit will produce a certain result, and that is not what the hunter saw.
 
#4 · (Edited)
Guess I'd come down mostly with Saskshooter, in that like rifles each being different in what they like sent down the bore, Critters respond in a wide range of actions when they are hit.

In the case of those taken with my 243, I'd say if have seen more drop right where they were hit then fan, but it has happened both ways and some which ran did so with a very deadly hit.

I come down very hard on bullets with integrity, and have little use for any bullet which will not hold together and not blow up, 100% of the time. Guess you could say that I'm a Nosler Partition kind of guy.

Now, when we are talking about LBT cast bullets, we need to be clear that we are talking about those with the WFN (wide flat nose) or LFN (long flat nose) which are proven to be great killers.

There is, with a caliber of .44 or larger loaded with a cast WFN bullet, cast with a good alloy, simply NO need, and in my case, NO desire for such a bullet to expand. None.

After many years of jacketed bullet hunting, I desided to take a different path for at least part of my remaining hunting years, choosing a 45/70 with my own cast bullets as the direction to take.

This is my 3rd hunting season, and so far 3 deer all of which dropped on the spot, and two elk, the first of which walked in a small circle before dropping and this years which took a very fast run before returning almost to the spot where it was shot before dropping.

Because of the large meplat (WFN) on my 465gr cast bullet, the bullet is already "expanded" when it first touches the hide and the results are all out of expectations for a non-expanding bullet. My velocity is in the 1600 - 1700fps range.

After seeing and reading of the results with good WFN cast bullets, there is no way I'd make the switch to a .45 caliber jacketed bullets.. My cast bullets witll do everything the jacket can and more, all at a much lower cost.

Then, differing from an earlier poster, I totally consider a hit which takes out both shoulders to be a very poor hit. I simply don't need that kind of meat damage to put my critters on the ground. One shoulder if that is the angle I'm presented, but both shoulders and I blew it!

Meat is the reason I hunt, horns gladly taken but very secondary as the meat in the freezer is considered VERY important.

Never have I lost a critter with a behind the shoulder shot and many have dropped where hit, but I have greatly increased the amount of usable meat that went into the freezer with that point of aim.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
 
#6 ·
Then, differing from an earlier poster, I totally consider a hit which takes out both shoulders to be a very poor hit. I simply don't need that kind of meat damage to put my critters on the ground. One shoulder if that is the angle I'm presented, but both shoulders and I blew it!

Meat is the reason I hunt, horns gladly taken but very secondary as the meat in the freezer is considered VERY important.
Coot if I or my boys are shootin "meat deer" then YES I agree, place the bullet BEHIND the shoulder & let them run a little if they do. But for our bigger, wall destined "swamp daddies" I'll always encourage taking out their running gear at every opportunity. As I said, there's just so much that can happen to them in my swamp if they run. Steaks from old bucks aint nearly as good as the young tender does. In fact I usually donate the bucks too our local Hunters for the Hungry.

My farm is in the HIGH deer density area of west TN. We can shoot 3 does per hunter, per day, everyday from 3rd Sat of Sept thru 2nd Sat of Jan! Meat is NO problem.

As for the "spot shootin" I've always shot & insrtuct my boys to view the deer as 3D/hollographic & shhot for the spot the want the bullet to exit from! That assures a much more sure strike/entrance point!
 
#5 ·
They shot does & toy bucks nearly every trip out.

Nothing wrong with “meat deer!”

"full penetration with exit & bloodtrail Stevie Wonder could follow" desciple for years.

I am of that persuasion! I prefer an exit wound with any shot. On deer in motion that is asking a lot from a bullet.

I also have a 35 Marlin that I bought a box of the heavy 220 Buffalo Bores

Our deer are light framed and my experience with the 220-grain Speer bullet shot from the 356 Winchester - 2,250 fps give or take 25 fps - the 220-grain Sper is just beginning to expand as it exits. My exit wounds are small and there is little external bleeding. I expect a deer to drop in its tracks using the 200-grain round nose bullets and I expect a deer to trot 25- to 50-yards when using the 220-grain Speer bullet
A big buck here weighs a rough 160-pounds on the hoof. (we have encountered some large deer in the past two yeasr since the big fires. The fire departments cut all of the high fences in many places and some large deer escaped. We also have axis deer on my property when we had not seen them prior to the fires.) Some mature does will run under 100-pounds on the hoof. We have 5 deer on our tags and we try to take as many meat deer as possible. The deer are overrunning us.

My son chose the 325 Leverevos but I on the other hand have a STOUT box of 300X Buffalo Bore (2200fps).

I would choose the X bullet over the LeveRevolution bullet any day. The LeveRevolution bullets have given me some dramatic entrance wounds - the hair being blown off the hide in a 2 or 3 inch circle around the entrance wound. Not all of my shots with LeveRevolution ammunition have produced exit wounds but all have produced a dropped at the shot kills. The LeveRevolution bullets do tend to shed some weight as they travel through the deer leaving a lead trail similar to that of a Sierra Pro-Hunter when the shot is close.


I fully expect these 300X bullets to rip them stem2stern!

I would be surprised if you did not have complete penetration with an X bullet. I have never recovered one. Some exit wounds with the X Bullet are interesting with the meat and hide cut as if by a knife - this is noticeable from neck wounds.

those heavier guns with their big scopes & long barrels just arent as convienient for tight quarters & snapshooting in my swamp.
They big scopes and long barrels have little use in my hunting cover. We have areas where a hunter is able to set up for a long shot but far more hunting opportunity in the thicj stuff.
I am looking seriously at the LH Ruger Scout rifle as I like the 307 and the 308 Winchester cartridges and a Ruger Scout with three shot magazine, low power scope or iron sights will be ideal for my type of hunting.

I have an 1895G and a Timber Rifle. Both are handy in a ground blind or when walking but my family objects to the gas blast and noise of the ported barrels.




My experience is that anyone who thinks he knows how a deer will react to any given shot from any given cartridge needs to shoot more deer.

That is the truth. Townsend Whelen wrote, a few years before I born, that no one hunter could gather enough experience during a life time of hunting to make absolute statements about bullet and animal behavior.

I think LOTS of wounded animals escape because someone believes a hit will produce a certain result, and that is not what the hunter saw.

We said. The article “So, You Missed” discusses that. I have been with hunters who made killing shots on deer that ran out of sight, complain about missing. The hunters answered the question of “where were your sights when the rifle fired?” properly. I have told them their deer were within 50-yards in the brush and have rarely been wrong. When I was wrong the deer were within 100-yards. In our country it is easy to loose a deer if it gets out of sight. If you don’t have confidence in your shot you can talk yourself out of a deer. Francis Sell told us to shot at a spot on the deer, not at the deer. It’s the only sure way to bring home venison.
 
#8 ·
In my experience of hunting whitetails, if the bullet path is not within an inch or so of the shoulder, neck or spine, the deer will run regardless of caliber or velocity. The faster the bullet opens, the faster it will stop, but they still run. These are all large bodied, midwestern whitetails from Missouri and Illinois.

Last year I shot a 2-1/2 year old, large bodied fork horn at about 55 yards with the Hornady sabot slug out of a rifled barrel H&R 12 guage. This 325 grain, 50 caliber hollow point was still traveling around 1900 fps + at impact, while the deer was walking across in front of me from left to right. The shot entered immediately behind the shoulder, and exited about 2 ribs further back. At the shot he ran full spead for 80-90 yards, slowed and finally wobbled and fell about 125 yards from where he was hit. The body cavity was full of blood, having taken out the big arteries above the heart. I was surprised he ran so far. A doe the year before hit almost identically, but with a 300 Savage shooting the 165 gr Cor-Lokt, jumped once and died withing 20 yards. Does are easier to drop, but I was still surprised the buck ran so far with such a devastating wound.
 
#9 ·
Interesting subject here and I've enjoyed reading all the responses thus far. I am lucky enough to live in an area with a very healthy deer population and liberal limits. That being said, I still limit my harvests to 3-5 per year and normally hunt for at least semi-mature bucks with racks of at least 8 pnts or so. Body size varies of course, but I've been lucky enough to take two of my three largest bodied whitetails in the last couple seasons, one with a M/L shooting a 295gr Power Belt bullet over 100gr of powder and the other with a .44mag and factory (Win) 240gr JFN loads.

Both these deer ran and ended up out of sight. Both shots were good ones, one through the top 1/3 of the heart and the other shoulder/high lung (.44mag). The M/L deer was very nearly not found as I could not see it's departure route due to the heavy lingering smoke. How that deer ran the 100+ yards he did, after his heart being dissected (photo below) is beyond me, but he did. There was no blood trail I ever saw (even after retracing his steps) and very little blood as I moved him from his final resting place over 1 hour later.

I was surprised the big buck killed with the .44 mag even moved a step, when I drilled him at about 70 yards, but even with full penetration, he ran off nearly 100 yards. He was a huge buck, well over 250# live weight, however and had been chasing does when I whacked him. he is pictured with a much smaller 2 1/2 - 3 yr old 8 pnt and was aged at 7 1/2 yrs old. Compare those to a few other recent harvests, another 8 pnt in Tn in '10 (200+), shot while he was also chasing a doe was DIT, but that shot was to the neck at perhaps 50 yards with the same 295gr M/L load. A 2 1/2 yr old 8 pnt in Kentucky managed to make it 100 yards after taking a 285gr load from a 9.3x62 that destroyed his lungs at no more than 25 yards. :confused:

I have long been an advocate of the .35 Whelen and have harvested many deer with one or another of the four I've owned over the years. It remains the only cartridge that has the distinction of dropping every single deer, within sight, that the trigger was pulled on. The last(?) was killed with a 200gr TSX @ 2870 FPS and dropped to the shot at 225 yds, being shot square through the lungs. He was a 2 1/2 - 3 yr old Tn buck that had, just moments before, been sparring with another buck. I would have guessed he would have run at least a ways(?). Oddly enough, deer I've killed with the .356 & .358 and .375 Winchesters have not always mirrored the apparent "load" brought onto them by the Whelen, although in limited harvests, the .350RM has done exactly the same as the Whelen.

All that aside, I honestly feel that deer, especially large, mature deer are individualistic and will react to being shot differently, especially if done so with moderate cartridges. However, I do believe that shooting deer with heavy loads and good bullets and making good shots will make a trailing job easier, if needed at all. I will be using the 45-70 this year along with the .444 and am figuring their effects will be similar (same?) as the .450 Marlin I used for a buck last year, DIT. But, I will not be a bit surprised, if I do see a mature buck run off at least a short ways after being well hit.
 

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#10 ·
At this (rather late) point in my shooting career, I have become a fanatic about through and through. I tend to use bullets that I can count on to produce an exit wound primarily for the ease of tracking that will be provided. I also believe that a complete pass through guarantees that the heart lungs (for which I always shoot) will be damaged enough that any tracking will be relatively short, with a dead animal at the end. I just no longer believe there is any validity to the so called "complete energy dump" theory that worries about wasting bullet energy on the landscape.

Nothing I have ever used, or seen used, will always drop deer on the spot, so I make sure my tracking will be helped with a good blood trail. Sometimes, and you can never tell when, you will have to do some tracking after the shot.
 
#11 ·
"My experience is that anyone who thinks he knows how a deer will react to any given shot from any given cartridge needs to shoot more deer."
I agree with that.
My experience, from both the deer I've shot, and the deer shot by the group of guys I've been hunting with for the last 25 years, is this: if you shoot them, they will run.
With the exception of brain or spine shots, I don't know of a bullet/cartridge combination that will drop a deer in its tracks every time. I think we've all had the experience of field dressing a deer that ran 40 yards, and found that the deer was clearly killed the instant it was hit- it just didn't realize it yet.
I prefer a bullet that will exit, as do most of the posters on this thread. That said, I've yet to see a deers chest that was 5 feet thick. I wonder if the emphasis on complete penetration we all seem to have leads to using bullets that penetrate more than we need them to - and expand less.
If you shoot a deer at a quartering angle, where you'll likely hit shoulder joint, you may need a bullet that penetrates 2-3 feet, at most. If you need more penetration than that, I suspect you're shooting deer in the butt.
Maybe the answer there is- don't take that shot. I think one of the marks of a hunter is, not the shots he takes, but the shots he decides not to take.
I've seen deer shot with about every caliber, from .45 on down to the 243 Winchester. They all worked when the deer were shot in the right place.
Of the deer I have seen that dropped on the spot with a chest shot, the most likely cartridge to do so was the 25-06. I would draw no conclusion from that, as the sample is not large enough to be conclusive.
 
#16 ·
"My experience is that anyone who thinks he knows how a deer will react to any given shot from any given cartridge needs to shoot more deer."
I agree with that.
My experience, from both the deer I've shot, and the deer shot by the group of guys I've been hunting with for the last 25 years, is this: if you shoot them, they will run.
With the exception of brain or spine shots, I don't know of a bullet/cartridge combination that will drop a deer in its tracks every time. .....

Jack,

I tend to agree with most every point you make

BUT (knock-on-wood), I've got a rifle that has produced a DRT deer or hog everytime so far without a CNS hit:



Its a rebarreled Vz-24 to 9,3x62 Mauser. I reload 286 NPTs to about 2,400 fps. It produces complete pass thrus - I've never found a bullet. Goes in about 1/2" round and exits 1 & 1/2" round holes regardless of hitting ribs, leg bone or the sternum along the way.
 
#12 ·
The OP asked for our experiences so I will add mine. I will not argue that you can tell what a deer will do as my direct experience of deer killed is less than 100 where I know the details of what happened and what the shooter used.

One of the guys I hunted with years back used a 22-250. I own one but would not use it for deer but he did. He was a good shot and careful hunter so all the deer that he shot were at most walking and I am sure a few had stopped. He always seemed to get a a deer or two in the years you could and I have recently talked to others about it and none of us remember a single deer of his leaving the spot it was shot. They may have taken a step or two but the deer always lay near the spot he was shot. We never helped him track a deer.

I used to shoot a 243 shooting 100 or 110 grain bullets probably Remington's soft tip probably still have some laying around but it has been a good while since I used that gun. I was young so what ever would work and was cheap. I always try to put it into the rib cage behind the shoulder and do not take shots that are not a sure thing. Always inside of 100 yards. The farthest a deer went was 5 step and it also was the closest I ever was when I shot a deer. The deer was at most 10 yards away. It did surprise me that the deer moved at all because all previous deer died where I hit them. They would just fall over. My son got his first buck with that gun and he tracked it after we spooked it. It too died where it was hit.

Of course I decided I needed a bigger gun so I went to a 7mm Magnum. Kept changing bullets after shooting a deer and watching it run off like I never hit it. One deer walked right near me and gave me a shot in the ribs behind the left shoulder and out the breast in front of the right shoulder. No meat ruined but that deer took off down the Hill maybe 60 yards, turned and ran up the hill right near me again as I could not believe I missed I finally got the gun back up and as he was about to present another easy shot it fell over. The hear was hamburger as was a whole lot of lung. I only had one deer die on the spot and it was the gun I used when I lost the only deer that I had hit but did not recover. In fact both happened at the same time. They both were doe moving with a few other doe. Shot the first one it died on the spot. The second doe ran a ways but stopped broadside maybe 50 yards away. I pulled the trigger and it went down. I was totally surprised again as it really was rare for a deer to go down with this gun. I started to walk over to the first deer and after a few steps the second deer got up and ran. I tried to take another shot but in PA woods it is rare that a long shot presents itself. Gutted deer one and went to track deer two.

No blood after a while and the tracks were mixed in with many other tracks. Circled the area for a good while and got some help from the guys I hunt with but never came across it.

One deer with a 300 Weatherby mag that was not hit in the ribs but went right down. Massive exit wound. Shooting Weatherby ammo I am not sure what grain bullet. The gun was a really nice gun so I just had it out to make sure it was used at least once to take a deer.

I had a friend that used the same thing and reloaded as hot as he could. this was long time ago before computers and Internet which I doubt he would have bothered with anyway. But most of his deer did not go far and he usually had massive exit holes. He hunted one ridge where his shots were always over 100 yards and probably less than 200.

I wish I could explain why the 243 consistently killed them on the spot and the 7mm mag rarely did. My most amazing incident with a deer was with a 7mm. First shot screwed up its hind legs as it kept moving but mostly with its front legs. I took the deer right on the boarder of the property and the owner of the other property was a real bastard so if a deer went on his property you really would be taking a risk to try and recover it. So ever time I saw an opening I fired again which was two times. The deer was alive and only moving slow so I put one more bullet through the spine high up in the shoulders. I was looking down on the deer from a hill top. That was it for the deer and the damage was massive. First deer I ever butchered myself because it made no sense to pay for what meat was still good. Again how that deer was still alive after all those hits is incredible. Of course I am sure none went into the heart lung area it still seemed like there was enough trauma to end its life.

Oh my son used the 7mm for a few years when I moved to a 270. He only got a few deer all ran a short distance. I got one with a 270 that was standing stationary about 50 yards or a bit more away and it died where I shot it.

Those are my experiences and I have read a host of other peoples that are completely different than mine. Oh in spite of my experience with the 243 I sold that gun to a friend.
 
#19 ·
One of the best post I have read in a long time, I can't explain why it happens this way either, I use to do most of my hunting with a .243 but for the last several years I have been using a 22-250. I would say that around 80% of the deer I've shot with a 22-250 never moved over a step and none of the other 20% went over 30-40 yards. Last year I shot 2 bucks over 150 inches and around 200lbs. and 5 or 6 does and none of them ever moved a step. I am a VERY careful shooter and pass up a lot of shots though.
 
#13 ·
I like the velocity and distace the 35's have over the big bores and find the medium velocity medium bores to be just the ticket. And they have a lower FELT recoil to boot.

In the 35rem the 220gr speer buffalo bore seems to lack the fast expantion needed for deer. While the 200 rem CLRN is just perfect and hands down the best 35rem bullet. I load it to 2188fps in a 336D and it works great. The 200gr rem CLRN has taken many of black bear and moose as well over the last 100 pluse years. For elk and moose the 220gr would be better for penitration but is more even needed.

In the 358win I have used the 200gr Spire point, 225gr Hawk RT .025", and need to load up some 225gr partitions to compar them to.

35rem/358win/35whelen/270Win
 
#14 ·
I DO have one caliber that HAS killed everything I ever shot with it (over 25 whitetails, 1 muley & 1 antelope) DIT except for 2 animals...
1). A 200#+ buck that I shot @ 25 yrds, he managed to take 2steps & tipover.
2). A Wyoming sagegoat that took one pill thru the lungs at 367 lasered yds & he took a half step & stood his ground with wobbly knees but I quickly zipped another bullet thru him anyway & he went down like Frasier.

It's my Sako Lazzeroni Warbird slingin a 30cal 150grn TSX appx 3700fps! A 26" in barrel (+ another 2" for the KDF brake) & a 6x24x50 30mm scope hardly makes for much of a snapshooter in my swamp! :p The first year I had that gun ('99 I believe it was) the same DIT results were achieved with 130 Xbullets doing near 4000fps but the 150TSX was considerably more accurate so I switched & never looked back.

The Lazz was likewise the only gun of mine that would regularly DUMP them DIT from nothing more than a double lung, no shoulder hit shot. It's VERY hard to expect DIT kills with only a dbl lung hit.

REALLY lookin forward to the ol 45-70 this fall tho, big, slow movin manhole covers does mighty wicked things! ;)
HL
 
#15 ·
In Elmer Keith’s Rifles For Large game, 1946, he wrote he believed that the earliest smokeless powder cartridges may have had the best bullets – that is the best balance of toughness to velocity. Keith wrote the bullets from the early 30-30, 30-40, 35 Winchester etc would expand and penetrate straight at any impact velocity from the muzzle to extreme range.
As velocity increased and manufacturers tried to keep pace the early trick point bullets (bronze tipped, capped and hollow point) performed as expected when they were used for game of the intended weight and when they did not arrive on target at too high or low velocity. When the bullets were used outside of a specific window they would sometimes behave strangely.
Today our bullets have a wider window of usefulness but we can still have a bullet that is a bit tough for the game we are shooting – such as the .35 caliber 220-grain Speer flat nose I mentioned. The Speer bullet is simply too stoutly constructed for the impact velocity on the deer I am shooting. Deer hit with the 220-grain bullet fired from the 356 or 358 Winchester will typically hump their back, put their head down, and trot or run – sometimes in a large circle for 50- to 100-yards. The deer are dead on their feet but they have not yet run out of oxygen as the bullet was not able to expand to any extent before it exited the animal.
The same 220-grain bullet fired from the 35 Whelen or the 350 Remington Magnum is a different story. The bullet is traveling faster and opens up quickly, while retaining a good amount of weight for penetration, the deer drop quickly.
I don’t discuss it much but I have loaded for and hunted with the 243 and 270. In my experience the 243 delivers its best performance when used with premium bullets which open up quickly yet retain enough weight for adequate penetration. The more conventional cup and core bullets did not work as well for me on other than broadside shots.
No negative comments from me on the 270,
I don’t internet to discuss these types of cartridges or rifles but I am very interested in reading other shooters experiences with the cartridges and the different bullets.
 
#17 ·
Mr. Iorg,
I've had similar results with my 356 and heavy bullets. Mine was the 200gr factory load (about 2300fps) shot into a quartering to buck at about 40+ yards. All it took was one shot and he ran about 40-50yds. The bullet was lodged in the hind quarter, a perfect mushroom with a lot of weight retention....but i would have thought more would have happened with that cartridge combo at that range. It made me never want to try my 220 gr speers on deer and certainly not the 250gr factory load. So I loaded it with the 180gr speer, thinking it would be better on deer sized game. I have yet to test that load on a deer (I often carry other guns).
Of the deer (and bear) I've taken with my 30-30, 307, 356, and 7-30, rarely have the outcomes been predictable. The only ones that could have been predicted were shots to the neck and spine where the deer and bear dropped in their tracks, although i did not predict it at the time of the shot. Most find the need to run after the shot, and I too have a desire that they stop as soon as possible as I hunt on public land (which is why I keep on shooting). But you can also see my tendency to use moderate calibers with bullets at moderate speeds, so maybe that is part of the reason.
I did make the mistake of using a bullet too tough for my gun once, lost the deer, and have tried to avoid that at all cost since. The proper combination between bullet velocity at impact and the strength of your bullet is important at it related to results. In recent years, I've been leaning towards lighter, faster bullets for my levers and am still testing its affects on game. Luckily, most of the bullets best for my levers are ones made for the slower 30-30 and its kin.
I made a 145gr flatnose for my 7-30 last year from a 154 gr hornady spitzer. It leaves the gun around 2400fps. The 220# (on hoof) buck I shot with it last year decided to run for 2 more shots, all at fairly close range, all hitting, the last dropping it in its tracks (likely hydrostatic shock to the spine). The first one would have killed it, but like i said earlier, i keep shooting. The bullet lodged in the hind quarter, retained a very good weight with a perfect mushroom, but i can't help thinking it might have been too much weight for that bullet at that velocity. Hunting, reloading, shooting, and everything around it is a learning experience, everything we do and experience prepares us better for the next time.
Happy hunting,
CJ
 
#18 ·
With heart/lung hits with have the most room for error, deer may or may not drop in their tracks. I have had DRT shots on deer with this shot using the 35rem, 358win, 35whelen, and 270win. I never count on A DRT shot but with both lungs and the heart/aorta gone its is usualy 30 yards and there piled up. Say 3-5 seconds total.

Every deer is different some fall over some go a bit and with simular shots. My whelen is 3 for 3 DRT using the 200 CL PSP with heart shots. The last two bucks both at 70 yards the first hit with the 200 CLRN from a 35rem at 2188fps double lung heart pass through went 30 yards and the last hit by a 225gr Hawk .025" jacket RT from my 358win at 2430fps did the same with a much bigger hole.
 
#21 ·
I cannot say that. I have had more “One soht, dropped in its tracks kills with the 307 Winchester and 170-grain bullets than with any other cartridge.
The 356 Winchester with the 200-grain bullets has performed very well for me.
The 375 Winchester with 200-grain Sierra bullets is a good deer killer -- I guess we can say these are “light for the caliber” bullets!
The 243 with 100-grain and lighter bullets, not so much.
I have done better with the 250 Savage and the 25-35AI and 100-grain bullets.
 
#22 ·
I think it is true that I have seen a higher percentage of DRT kills from very high speed, frangible bullets than from slower, less frangible bullets when shot into the chest cavity. I have also seen a higher percentage hits that required long, often very difficult tracking jobs (due to no blood trail) and follow up shots from very high speed, frangible bullets than from slower, less frangible bullets.

I dislike long tracking without a good blood trail and the necessity of follow up shots WAY more than I am impressed by a tendency to drop in their tracks. I can also say that "if" I decide I need an animal dropped on the spot, there are shots that can be made with heavier bullets that also have the tendency to drop them on the spot.

I prefer more certainty of a short, easy to track trail to the possibility of no tracking at all, but with the consequent risk of lots of it.

"Dead in its tracks" is far less important to me than "dead from the first shot", even though the animal may run a bit. A good blood trail from an exit wound makes a short run no issue. No blood trail makes those that do run (and it must be remembered that some WILL run, no matter what caliber is used) very hard to follow at times. I avoid those times by using enough gun. There is no such thing as bullet energy "wasted" on the landscape.
 
#24 ·
You have to know your shot, and what is required of the bullet you are using to successfully execute it. If you take rear quartering shots that have to go through the paunch to reach vitals, then you need a stout bullet that will give excellent penetration. The same goes for the high shoulder shot, through both shoulders and maybe even the spine. Quick expanding bullets may fail on this shot, but are perfect for behind the shoulder shots that will hit nothing bigger than a rib bone.

Know your rifle, know your bullet, know your trajectory, know your quarry's anatomy, wait for the right shot, and you will have no problems. Cor-Lokts and Power Points have been killing deer for many decades, but just don't expect them to do something they are not designed to do.
 
#26 ·
The death run...good term. The last elk that I shot did that. And, where it ran...it was a real beastie to get it out of that hole/ravine. Easy to follow, just follow the busted brush.

It have read in books, and seen that gut shot deer will hunch their backs and look sick, before they run off. And also, a deer shot in the heart will jump up and kick their back legs in the air and run like the boogey-man is after them. They will run at least 50, if not 100 yards before they notice that their heart is not there and that it is physically impossible to run w/o a heart. They will then keel over and die.

The last time that I had that happen, I as able to follow chunks of shoulder bone to the deer. She had a hole in the top of her shoulder the size of my fist.

Shortly afterwards, I vowed to stop shooting deer in the heart as I read, in a book, that was what they would do. I then put 2 and 2 together.

This is my theory, and take it for what its worth. That, smaller bullets (like out of a .243, .257, and maybe even .270) have more of what I call bullet-upset than a bigger bullet. The bullet, because it is smaller, is more likely to wobble, yaw and is otherwise more affected by the impact and etc that a bigger bullet. Therefore, it transfers more PROPORTIONAL energy than a bullet twice its weight. Anybody got a thought on that?
 
#27 ·
Stinky,

Go back and read post #22. It's one of the best-written, most concise comments on the differences between light/fast and heavy/slow bullets I've ever read. Anything else I might say would only detract from it.
 
#28 ·
I like what Post 22 said and given that we all have seen lots of things when shooting a deer I think it is safe to say that they have the ultimate answer. I also think the shooter has a lot more influence on what makes his answer right or wrong or shades there of.

Some shooters are going to pull the trigger if they see an animal that they want to take pretty much no matter how certain the shot is. On another forum about strange reactions to being hit and odd shots taken it is clear that some shoot if they think they might pull the shot off. These shooters are going to have more shots into the shoulder, or long ways through the animal. To my way of thinking these types do need big bullets that hold together no matter what it hits.

I am more to the other extreme in that unless I get a shot into the rib cage at a deer that is at most moving slowly and only then if they are very close it is almost 100 percent certain that the biggest things I will hit is a rib bone. Smaller more frangible bullets are not so much at risk because I am not going to take those shots that have the potential to hit anywhere. I must admit that I am not as patient when it is the first chance at a kill for a new gun. Stupid but I become less patient for the perfect shot in my mind.

However, I never really thought of it the way that post does in that he hates a long track than loves a DRT. I guess my ambition for DRT is because I hate the thought of tracking a deer. I can see where the exit hole is important for a blood trail. I guess I recently moved to a different gun hoping it has a lot of DRT in it but also a certainty that the deer is not going to go far if hit and tracking will be easy. I just got a 300 Win Mag for small PA deer and will be using bullets that are perhaps not as stout as some of the bonded bullets but I think leans more toward weight retention than some of the more fragile bullets.

While I agree with post 22 on a bullet going through I would like for it to have just enough energy to exit out the back side. I do want as much of the bullets energy to be left in the deer. I think if that is of no importance we would all be shooting those solid bullets that are not going to break up no matter what it hits.

I tend to believe that bullet makers are trying to appeal to both sides of the issue with some of the newer bullets that retain most of their weight but expand quickly and open up a good amount. I think that if someone does figure out what kind of bullet would be nearly 100 percent successful at leaving the animal DRT we all would be buying them.

So Sask thanks for your point of view that I never thought of in that way and I think it is a better approach to deciding what bullet and what gun you chose to use.
 
#29 ·
The idea of energy being expended inside an animal is a total myth, in my opinion. What I mean is, the only thing that counts is tissue damage, which is a result of the work done by the projectile. Yes, it takes energy to do that work. But it is unrealistic to think that a bullet stopping inside an animal (or just barely passing through) is magically different than a bullet that does the same damage and then travels on.

The energy formula used by ammunition companies heavily favor velocity - it is squared in the equation. To me, it is only useful to compare energy level of one cartridge to another. ;-)

For what it is worth, the highest velocity cartridge I ever shot a deer with was a 7 mag shooting a 150gr bullet. That deer had more bloodshot meat AND ran further than any other deer I've shot, all from a shot that went in behind the left shoulder and broke the right shoulder on the way out.
 
#41 ·
The idea of energy being expended inside an animal is a total myth, in my opinion. What I mean is, the only thing that counts is tissue damage, which is a result of the work done by the projectile. Yes, it takes energy to do that work. But it is unrealistic to think that a bullet stopping inside an animal (or just barely passing through) is magically different than a bullet that does the same damage and then travels on.

The energy formula used by ammunition companies heavily favor velocity - it is squared in the equation. To me, it is only useful to compare energy level of one cartridge to another. ;-)

For what it is worth, the highest velocity cartridge I ever shot a deer with was a 7 mag shooting a 150gr bullet. That deer had more bloodshot meat AND ran further than any other deer I've shot, all from a shot that went in behind the left shoulder and broke the right shoulder on the way out.
I agree 100% that was built with the premis if 100% of a bullets energy is spent inside an animal it would acualy do more damage. Thats a false premis. What a bullet hits and damages is what counts. And there are many factors and ways to do that. In short I find the widest, longest, possible wound cannel that alows some fragmintaion of the bullet while still leaving enough bullet to drive through +100% does the best. Reason is it dosn't rely on just a single method to kill it uses many to get the job none. Example Nosler weight ertention of 60%-70% in most of their bullet designs like the PT & AB & BT if the right cal & weight is matched to the job at hand.
 
#30 ·
The kinectic energy equation (1/2MV^2) dates back to around the 1700's and applies to all objects in motion. Another way of thinking of expending all the energy within, following Raptors lead, is by assuming you are shooting a deer with the same rifle in the same place, twice. The first with a strong bullet at a distance such that the kinectic energy upon impact with the animal is 1000 ft-lbs. The strong bullet doesn't deform as much thus doesn't slow down as much thus doesn't transfer as much energy to the surrounding tissue thereby exiting the animal at a velocity that when the remaining kinectic energy of the bullet on the back side of the animal is 500 ft-lbs. Thus 500 ft-lbs of energy was transfered to the animal to cause damage to tissue. Your next bullet is a little softer, probably ideally designed for contact at a given speed, which happens to be what your rifle is producing, and impacts the deer at the exact same spot with the same contact energy (1000 ft-lbs) but expands well, maybe even comes apart a little, and thus slows down so it barely penetrates the hide and falls to the ground, zero velocity on the back side of the deer resulting in 1000 ft-lbs of energy transfered to the deer.
It should be apparent that bullet choice if very important and very specific for each cartridge given the range of its intended use and the quarry it is pursuing.
An object need not penetrate a body to inflict lethal damage due to kinectic energy. A good example is how people can die of internal injuries in a car accident when their body was travelling at 35 mph and came to an abrupt stop....Kinectic energy absorbed within.
 
#31 ·
An object need not penetrate a body to inflict lethal damage due to kinectic energy.
This is true, but in order to leave a solid blood trail, should that "body" R U N N O F T...I like an exit wound!

APEE

Accuracy is the most important trait of any hunting bullet.
Penetration, through and through, is essential when hunting big game animals, in my opinion.
Expansion, of smaller caliber bullets, and such that it does not prohibit complete penetration, is highly desirable.
Energy, sufficient that bullets expand and penetrate. I could care less how much is transferred to the animal or exits the far side.

When a bullet meets all four of those criterion, in that order, it is doing what it's supposed to do.
 
#32 ·
Back in the early 70s when I was still in the service I was given a Rem. Mod 788 in 22-250. At the time it was the only center fire rifle I owned. I shot 5 deer with it. All were behind-the-shoulder shots and every one died literally in it's tracks. I was using Speer 55gr SP bullets, H380 powder and an old Lee Loader. Distances of animals shot grows in the mind sometimes but I'd say the furthest was 185 - 200 yards.
After a while I decided I needed a bigger caliber so I bought a '98 Mauser rebarreled to 6mmRem. I loaded 100gr Speer SP bullets, again with H380. With behind - the - shoulder shots the deer would typically run a little ways, maybe 30 yards or so, and then fall over dead. I remember one muley I shot in New Mexico at about 150 yards, using the 6mm, and it was a raking shot - I was aiming for the opposite shoulder and I hit it. The bullet sailed through the lungs and busted the off shoulder, lodging in the skin. The deer hobbled off a ways and fell into an arroyo, dead. That 6mm was my only rifle for a long time.
Fast forward to now. I shoot a single shot Haenel Lawrence '98 Mauser chambered for 30-40AI. Last year I shot a white tail spike at about 65 yards with an older 150gr cup and core Speer SP over H380 (love that powder!) and at the shot the deer dissapeared. I walked over and he was dead. The bullet broke a rib, angled almost straight up and broke the spine from inside, ruining the off-side backstrap. I found the bullet lodged under the skin next to the broken spine and all it was was an expanded copper jacket. I have no idea where the lead core went.
This year I am using 180gr Hornady Interlocks (guess what powder I'm using!) because I'm hoping for less meat damage.
Over the years I've had to track a few deer. One was shot at about 50 yards with a 30-30 170gr factory load right behind the shoulder. He took a hop into the woods and it took me two hours to find him. He had gone about 1/2 mile and was piled up in the middle of a logging road. Another that comes to mind was shot at about 50 yards with a CVA .45 cal flintlock, again behind the shoulder. He ran down hill and crossed the creek, topped the rise beyond it and was alive, barely, lying behind a large yellow pine, so I shot him again in the neck, killing him instantly.
I agree, you never know how an animal will react when hit. As a medic in Viet Nam I can say the same thing about humans. I will say I was mighty impressed with that old 22-250, but as I said, they were all broadside boiler room shots. I don't know the answers about high velocity small bullets vs slower big bullets. All I know is that if you hit an animal in the heart/lung area with just about any bullet it will die. How soon is up to the animal.
 
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