Yea, I agree...

A pic of the bad cases and what the tool is you are using to reach into the case to smooth the inside...
(Inside neck reamer?)

BCB

Here's something I recently learned on another website. A poster had called Hornady to complain about neck splits in .204 cases he'd gotten by buying factory ammo. The customer rep told him that Hornady does not sell factory ammo as reloading components.

Let's assume that the customer rep was telling the truth: that .204 factory ammo is not sold as reloading components. ( .30-30 ammo most definitely is sold under that assumption, btw)

That means they assume it will be thrown away after one firing. It therefore makes sense that they would not fully anneal such cases, and might relax some QC parameters as well. That keeps the cost of factory ammo as low as possible, to the benefit of that large percentage of shooters who do not reload.

Brass sold as components, however, would get added anneal, added inspections, and tighter QC control. That costs the maker more and therefore component brass costs us reloaders more.

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Maybe so, but wouldn’t the same expander that works on Brand X case still open the Hornady case and flare the mouth to accept a bullet the same as Brand X?...

Inside diameter would be the same as the case expander and the mouth would still be flared…

I’ve expanded cases that were pinched to the point where it was extremely difficult to get the expander to enter the case and it still would accept a bullet…

Even if the cases were badly scored in the inside, it would still be expanded to the expander diameter. The inside diameter of the case could be no less than the diameter of the expander die. And at some places, it could be a larger diameter if 2 deep scratch marks were 180° of each other…

I suppose one could argue that a case that is hard and not annealed might spring back after being expanded. But, I have expanded cases that would squeak loudly and actually stretch the case when the expander plug was pulled free and a bullet still would seat…

In post #11, baddad457 indicates the Lee dies don’t flare cases—In post #19, I show that the Lee dies do expand and flare a straight-walled case…

More to it than just Hornady brass—my opinion…

BCB

My point (which must be considered in light of the other excellent posts in this thread) is that Hornady brass from factory ammo may be annealed differently than Hornady brass sold as a component. (And may be different in other respects, as well.)

If the brass you're having trouble with came from factory ammo, it might not be usable AS IS for reloading. According to the anecdotal tales, the guys who have annealed Hornady brass have no trouble with it, and those who merely reload it do. I offered a possible explanation.

Now, let's consider that in the current environment, ammo makers are doing everything possible to keep the cost of factory ammo competitive. They all might have relaxed their case prep standards as part of that cost reduction. It's a fact that most shooters do not reload, after all. If so, the brass in ALL recent factory ammo should now be considered at least slightly suspect as reloadable brass, without additional steps on our part.

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Maybe so, but still, what would stop the bullet from seating. If it took that much force, wouldn't the case buckle?...

And if the case is expanded the length of a bullet being seated, shouldn't it still seat?...

I edited my previous post and the "expander/flare" thing may be the issue...

BCB

This whole thread is just another reason to stay away from Hornady and Federal brass. it sounds like they are taking lessons from each other.

federal also has the gumption to sell factory ammo with cases that should not be used for reloading due to numerous issues.

I sell every piece of federal and hornady brass I pick up on the range, to the local gun shop. People who don't know any better go gaga for the stuff. I'll stick with Winchester, remington, lapua, and Norma.

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Wow, that's interesting...

I have Federal brass that I have used for many calibers that I have reloaded. I have 223 and 357 Federal brass that has been reloaded at least a dozen times each. Maybe more...

BCB

My 25 year old set of Lee carbides must be the odd ball then

I'd agree with what others said about the brass being shorter than what you are regularly using. Haven't seen it mentioned where you mic'd it to be sure.

My two cents.

RJ

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I think it might be difficult to solve this problem without good pics and maybe even seeing how the reloading process is being done…

As far as expanders not doing the job or being the problem. I have, right in front of me, a 44 Magnum case that I expanded and flared with a 45 Colt expanding die and I seated a 0.454” boolit into the 44 Magnum case…

If the case is expanded to the bullet diameter or a tad under and there is a flare, the bullet will seat…

And so it goes…

BCB

I don't think that pistol dies expand like rifle ones do. The neck tension is from the wall thickness of the brass subtracted from the sizing die. The flaring device has to work on every single case out there and since there are varying wall thicknesses, that means that it HAS to be undersized in order to enter every case. Not sure, but, I am headed to the basement to check!

I have Lee and a set of RCBS dies. Will report back, later tonight.

Don’t matter the thickness of the walls…

The expander will enter the case as it has a rounded/tapered end…

The only difference in the finished product will be the outside diameter of the case will be greater with brass that is thicker…

The inside diameter will be the same in all brands expanded…

BCB

I agree 100% on this, based on my observations with their brass, plus their marketing ploys with the FTX line, which based on comparisons of their 325 gr 45/70 and Speer 350 gr JFN's at the same muzzle velocity, there is no difference to speak of in trajectory, nor B.C. between the two. and then there's their "Zombie" ammo line. Come on now, how juvenile can you get to introduce an ammo lineup like "Zombie killer" ? (or is it Zombie Max ? I forget, but it's Zombie-something) It's obvious to me that they'll go to any length to gain market share. Then there's the wider belt they gave the 450 Marlin, that in itself guaranteed sales of their brass in that caliber, by preventing reloaders from making 450 brass from other, more common belted magnum cases, like 300 Win mag, or 7MM rem mag.

The Lee expanders I own have a step in the plug, in place of a tapered expander. I never said Lee's do not expand the cases. (go back and reread that post) Which is one reason I retired my Lee 45/70 dies and replaced them with a Lyman set. That and the Lee seating die's weak nose plug (aluminum)) had problems seating bullets on compressed powder charges. You're entitled to your opinions as to the quality of Hornady brass, I posted this to point out my experiences with it. I've been loading for 25+_ years now, so I'm not some "wet behind the ears newbie" making inaccurate observations. As I posted before, I own probably every brand of 44 mag brass there is, and none gave me the problems those 7 Hornady cases did. (And I DO mean EVERY, I've got some most haven't heard of in my collection, including Herters, 3-D, Browning, IMI, Super Vel, plus many others that don't come to mind at this time)

I did mic the cases, they were a full .005" shorter than some 25 year old 44 brass that I've been reloading over and over again in that time frame. The only 44 cases I trim are those with split necks, and only then to salvage the brass, loading them to 44 Spl or 44 Russian. I learned long ago that trimming just isn't necessary in reloading 44 brass, unless the case splits.

Hi Skip,
Most expander plugs for handgun calibers will be from .002" under nominal bullet diameter to maybe .003" under. There will of course be exceptions, and I have had a couple that were only .001" under, but that's the norm. I load for quite a few different calibers and with dies from several makers, and they have been very consistant in this regard. I always take the plug out and turn it down so that it is .004"- .005" under nominal for a much better bullet pull, which as you know helps with getting a better burn especially in magnum rounds.



To the point of this thread-
I know that different brands of cases can vary in wall thickness at the case mouth, so maybe baddad's brass is especially thick in that area, and maybe it is just a shade too hard (as mentionjed above by someone), which would cause it to want to spring back after coming off the expander plug.

One thing I have not seen mentioned-

baddad,
is or was there any evidence of someone having used any sort of bullet/case mouth sealer on the cases before you picked them up? I have loaded some that were treated with that stuff (some guys just have to use the latest and greatest because they read it somewhere that it was the best thing since sliced bread ) and they were a pain to seat bullets in when tried loading them. the case tumbler wouldn't remove it all, and those I didn't end up scraping with the chamfering tool I ended up pitching.

Sorry baddad457, didn't mean to step on toes...

If you go look at the link to the pics I posted, you will see a very distinct flare. The expander plugs are shown with each case. I believe someone else indicated their Lee dies also flare cases...

Get rid of the Lee amazingly stupid O-ring to hold everything in place and screw the expanding plug completly tight to the top of the expanding die. Use the lock ring on the die to adjust the depth the case goes into the die. I beileve you will then get a flare...

(On any Lee dies that I have and I have them only because they were in some selling lot of reloading equipment I purchased, I threw he O-rings away and drilled and tapped the locking rings so I could use a set screw)

I guess your best bet would be to just get rid of anything Hornady and your reloading life will be much less stressful. That would seem to be the simple solution...

Good-luck...BCB

The only Hornady brass I have is from some factory fired 40 rounds of 223. After 11 reloads I have since sized them to 222, trimmed, and they are on their 3rd loading as 222. I only annealed them once before sizing to 222. Haven't had any issues yet with the brass, but I don't load them at max either. Wouldn't hesitate to use their brass in the future. Hope you have better luck!

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EW

I'm still scratching my head to try and figure out how Hornady would have seated bullets in those cases in the first place, if the inside was so rough. Wonder if the corroded or whatever after being discarded at the range. They were range pick-ups, right?

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MikeG

Yea, they were picked up at the range. No telling as to how Hornady does it at the factory. I'd like to have seen the bullets that they seated in them, judging from the experience I had reloading them, I'll bet those bullets could have been pretty trashed too, only the buyer would never know, unless he fired them into a barrel of water to recover them undamaged. These are the two case mouth tools I have. The left one is a Lyman tool, the right I think is a Lee. As to American Made's question about sealer, there was none, unless it was a clear sealer, the inside of the case was clean as you'd expect of once fired brass.

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Can you check case wall thickness at the case mough with your calipers? I have checked a few different brands, and some of them are noticably thicker at the mouth than others.

I have a feeling though, that the guy who posted about the factory ammo brass from Hornaday being different than the reloading brass was closest to the problem.