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  #1  
Old 01-20-2013, 04:43 PM
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What causes Flyers?


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What exactly causes Flyers? Also how far off from your group do you consider it to be a flyer/
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Old 01-20-2013, 04:48 PM
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I shoot 5 shot groups, I consider anything outside the pattern of the other 4 a flyer, however an uncalled flyer holds much more weight than a called flyer. If you could answer that question 100% you would be rich.
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Old 01-20-2013, 05:24 PM
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Thanks, I am also shooting 5 shot groups I shot 6 different loads today 5 shots each each one had a flyer some were more significant than others. I had one that never touched paper not for sure what happened there I am pretty sure i didnt yank the trigger.
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Old 01-20-2013, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecil View Post
What exactly causes Flyers?
The shooter, more often than not.
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Old 01-20-2013, 05:38 PM
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Believe it or not the cause of fliers is often - us.
It is hard to control recoil exactly the same every time - even when we think we have.
This is especially true when shooting lever-action rifles from the bench.
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Old 01-20-2013, 05:43 PM
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Yep, barrels walk shots when there is an issue; Shooters cause fliers, whether they admit it aloud or not.
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Old 01-20-2013, 05:52 PM
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you have 4 shots in a group and one off the paper???, could one have gone through the same hole as another?. I have seen flyers but that is something beyond a flyer.
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Old 01-20-2013, 06:01 PM
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I was kind of figuring it was me on most of the flyers. most of the flyers were not that far off. The one that went off paper, I dont have a clue what happened I am pretty sure it didnt go through same hole its possible but not very likely.
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Old 01-20-2013, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecil View Post
I was kind of figuring it was me on most of the flyers. most of the flyers were not that far off. The one that went off paper, I dont have a clue what happened I am pretty sure it didnt go through same hole its possible but not very likely.
it is much more common than one might think.if you have a proper backer on your target you should be able to tell
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Old 01-21-2013, 08:08 AM
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Flyers are caused by the difference in the brass. Full benchrest prep of brass will help. But sorting brass by weight of 1/10 gr can make a big difference. Start with 100 minium factory new brass. At least, this is what i found with Win & Rem. brass. FL sizing bushing dies are your friend, using no expander.
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Old 01-21-2013, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by 243winxb View Post
Flyers are caused by the difference in the brass. Full benchrest prep of brass will help. But sorting brass by weight of 1/10 gr can make a big difference. Start with 100 minium factory new brass. At least, this is what i found with Win & Rem. brass. FL sizing bushing dies are your friend, using no expander.
You must be buying brass a whole lot more consistant than I usually get. If I were separating my brass in 1/10 grain increaments, i'd probably get 4 batches of 3 or 4 cases with others all over the place. While I'd agree weight matching is useful it's not the only reason for fliers. Other than the shooter I'd consider bullet seating concentricy, or maybe the bullets themselves. Good barrels seem to shoot everything better with fewer fliers.
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  #12  
Old 01-21-2013, 10:09 AM
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Flyer's are basically bullets that hit outside your normal group and they can be caused by numbers of things. They can be things with the rifles barreled action, the barrel itself, the bedding, the loads you are shooting, and the shooter himself. A good shot can easily recognize them, but most won't have a clue and probably are the main cause of them. Some rifles can be extremely sensitive to how you hold them. Something as simple as applying a pressure to the stock with the palm of you hand while gripping it one time and a different pressure or no pressure the next time can affect POI. Stocks themselves are a major cause, wooden stocks touching the barrel can change with humidity and the temp of the barrel during shooting.
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Old 01-21-2013, 10:45 AM
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I don't know the precise number, of course, but the VAST majority of fliers that I have shot, or seen shot, were the result of the shooter. I almost always know (after the fact) when I "pull" one, and I very seldom get them unless it's my fault.

My loads are always very carefully developed, and not many variables remain that can result in a true "flier" for my loads. It's not very good for my ego, but it's almost always my fault.
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Old 01-21-2013, 10:50 AM
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Old 01-21-2013, 10:51 AM
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I consider a flyer to be well outside the group I have shot up to that point and I can normally call it before looking. Yes, true, that one of the cartridges you have shot will not actually match the loadings of the others and result in a 'flyer', but we must all admit that we more or less know when we are to blame.
Part of training way back when, was a game we played at the 300yrd marker shooting on minimum scope setting(x4). Targets had one inch squares and after each shot we called the square we had hit. Each square had a price and if we called the wrong one we had to chip into a charity box the amount marked in the square our round had gone into. Good fun ...but can get expensive. What it taught, was to watch exactly where those cross hairs where when the rifle went off, that way you could call a flyer if you yanked it a bit.
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Old 01-21-2013, 11:24 AM
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I'll try to give you a statistical answer. Board member Denton Bramwell works with statistics professionally, so if he sees this thread he may discover I've misinterpreted the tables I have, but it appears to me to be as follows: Measure your five shot groups, fliers included (excluding the group with one off the paper, which you obviously can't measure) and average the result. Now measure the groups made by the best four shots in each group, and get that average. Now divide the five shot average by the four shot average. If the result is bigger than 1.77, then, with a confidence of 95%, the odds are that the average flier really is a flier and not just due to random chance, and vice versa. As to the cause of the fliers, it most often is a masked shooter error, as mentioned above. Read through this article to get some idea what it takes by way of practice and technique to minimize that factor.

On the other hand, it isn't always the shooter. How many rounds are through the gun and what is its chambering? When I shot out my first M1A barrel, I was surprised to learn the groups don't just gradually open up. What happens is you start getting fliers. First it was one flier out of 20 shots that roughly doubled group size. Even though I had been cleaning my 20 slow fire shots about every other week in the local league up to that point in time, I just assumed it was me that was screwing up. Then maybe one or two hundred rounds later it became one flier in 10. I still figured it was me. Then a little while later it got to be 1 in 5, and at that point it finally got through my thick skull that I wasn't delusional and that these fliers were definitely not hitting where I called them and that it wasn't me, after all. It was a chrome-moly barrel with close to 3500 rounds through it at that point, and in .308, that's a fairly typical chrome-moly shoot-out count.
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  #17  
Old 01-21-2013, 05:38 PM
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In my rifles after I get a load developed flyer's are caused by me and it could be from any number of things from not reading condition,bag technique etc.

Hang over from my BR days it's 5 shot group.
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  #18  
Old 01-23-2013, 01:13 PM
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Statistics causes fliers!

Actual unless your load falls center of a vibration node for your rifle any deviaction in your load, your shooting technique, etc... will be exploted.
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Old 01-23-2013, 04:01 PM
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I had a gun that was doing that. I closed up the bullet to lands distance and it went away. Now if I could fix the other 30 that do it....
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  #20  
Old 01-23-2013, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyF View Post
You must be buying brass a whole lot more consistant than I usually get. If I were separating my brass in 1/10 grain increaments, i'd probably get 4 batches of 3 or 4 cases with others all over the place. While I'd agree weight matching is useful it's not the only reason for fliers. Other than the shooter I'd consider bullet seating concentricy, or maybe the bullets themselves. Good barrels seem to shoot everything better with fewer fliers.

My brass would be like yours, that is if I weighed it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BKeith View Post
Flyer's are basically bullets that hit outside your normal group and they can be caused by numbers of things. Something as simple as applying a pressure to the stock with the palm of you hand while gripping it one time and a different pressure or no pressure the next time can affect POI.
This the most common error with new shooters, or shooters who don't shoot often enough. Like me I used to shoot a lot, and still do shoot more then lots of others, but not nearly enough to be confident.



In my experience when I used to shoot a lot, and I'm talking like 3000-5000 rounds a year, and watching others do the same, especially my son. The biggest problem with 4 shot groups is a load that is just a little to hot. If you don't believe me, the next time you are shooting 4 shot groups, just try dropping your load by one whole grain or more.

This saved my butt more then once when shooting in competition. It wasn't long after that I decided to shoot milder loads and never had that problem again, except for called flyers from not reading wind or heat waves correctly. If I could have ever figured that out I would have had a whole bunch of plaques on the wall.
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