Hello boys,

After I get my Ruger Flattop 44 special, I'm going to start saving for my first 44wcf and I've got a few questions...

I'm leaning towards the 44wcf but I'm also open to the 38wcf. I'll probably also get an Uberti SAA clone in a matching caliber. Any opinions on the 44 vs the 38wcf for 95% general target shooting/plinking? With real black powder as well as smokeless? I would like to be able to hunt whitetail with the rifle but that's really a secondary issue- these will just be fun guns.

It seems that most of the 44wcf guns these days have .429" bores while the 38wcf run about .40" is this correct? Will using .429"~.430" diameter bullets in 44wcf brass pose any problems?

From a general reloading standpoint; is either round just as easy to reload for? ...Or is the 38wcf a little easier? Speaking of the thin brass and delicate shoulder of these rounds. I'm already a firm believer in Lyman's "M" dies and will use a Lyman die set for whichever caliber.

Speaking of loading real BP in either round; I've got way more 2F BP than 3F on hand and would like to burn up as much of it as I can before I procure more. I know BP needs to be compressed but do issues arise if I try to cram too much, and therefore, compress too much powder in this thin brass?

As to rifles... I'm leaning towards the win-1873 clone mainly because it was actually offered in both of these calibers but I'm open to both the 1866 and 1860 clones. If they offered the 1860 clone in .44 russian I'd be all over it (this would probably be close the the original .44 Henry rimfire round, as I understand it). Are there pros and cons to each of these three choices of rifle?

Thanks...

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Sean,

"Much learning doth make thee mad" - Festus

This is just my opinion, if I had the money, I would get the Uberti 1873. I like that one the best.

As far as your reloading questions, those that reload will have to respond since I don't reload at the moment and don't know enough to reliably answer those questions.

The 1873 and 1866 are available in 44 Special. In the 66 its close to the original size cartridge. "Rifle" magazine had a good write up in the 44 Special 1873. The author got about 1500 fps with a 250 grain bullet. I just picked up a Winchester 1873 in 44/40 but havent loaded for it yet. Seems you need the Lee factory crimp die and then you wont lose cases crimping. The 38/40 and 44/40 are about the same to load for but the 44/40 has a larger selection of components available. The 66 does not have a lever safety and can fire out of battery. The 73 has a safety bar that wont allow the trigger to move until the lever is closed.

Thanks for the info, I wasn't aware of that.

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Sean,

"Much learning doth make thee mad" - Festus

Hardball,
I have 2 rifles in .44-40 and have some experience with loading for them.
Even though the case neck is fairly thin, I have had no problems whatsoever in reloading them.

I use the Lyman "M" die for neck expansion as you mentioned.

I use .429/.430" cast bullets and they work just fine.

I have some experience in loading for a friends .38-40 and it is the same as loading for the .44-40.

Regarding b.p.....good results can only be obtained shooting multiple shots by using a bullet that carries enough lube for the trip down the rifle barrel. A whole chapter could be written on that subject but here's my experience in a condensed version:
Bullets with a lube capacity of less than 1 gr. of lube - poor results
Lyman 427098 holds 1 gr. of lube:
- shoots well for repeated shots with SPG lube & Swiss brand b.p.
- does not shoot well with b.p.'s other than Swiss - hard fouling
- does shoot well with the b.p. subs...777, etc

.44 MAV "Big Lube" - holds 1 1/2 gr. of lube
- shoots ok with all brands of black
can be purchased from www.whyteleatherworks.com


Have fun.

John

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aka *w30wcf[br]aka *Jack Christian SASS #11993"[br]I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." *Philip. 4:13[br]

I have the 1873 Cimarron (Uberti) in .44-40. My bore is .429. I would go with the 1873 as they are the original calibers for the rifles. He Henry and 66 original .44 rimfire ain't around anymore, so if authnticity is important go 73. I load smokeless (6.5 gr. Unique) and black (35 gr) both with 200 gr cast bullets. Works great!

Thanks for the replies... I'm very much leaning towards the 1873 in 44wcf.

As for loading it; I guess I'll figure out what will, or will not, work well for me once I get this rifle but it's good to know that I've got a good chance towards accuracy with Lyman's traditional mould and BP.

Thanks all.

__________________
Sean,

"Much learning doth make thee mad" - Festus

It seems that most of the 44wcf guns these days have .429" bores while the 38wcf run about .40" is this correct? Will using .429"~.430" diameter bullets in 44wcf brass pose any problems


It shouldn't but a lot of that has to do with your chamber. .44/40 was originally a .427" bore and I know in some rifles seating a .429 or .430 can bulge the neck sufficiently to make the round hard to chamber. One of my friends had this trouble with his .44/40 Vaquero revolver (.429 bore but not chambers,) he ran .427 pills for years with only average accuracy then got the front of the chambers reamed out a bit to take the shells loaded with .429 pills.

I would get a '73 winchester, steel is stronger than brass and the '66s and Henry's may stretch after a few thousandl rounds, or just one overload.

I have an Uberti-made 1873 Winchester rifle in .44-40 caliber.
Love it.
Some may laugh, but it's also a fairly decent home defense gun. I'd prefer a shotgun, but my rifle's tube holds 13 rounds.
A 200 gr. lead, flatpoint bullet at 1,150 fps is not to be ignored or discounted.

The 1873 is to be preferred, in my opinion. It was originally an improvement on the Henry and the Model 1866. You'll also find it easier to find after-market accessories for the 1873.
The fact that it's a steel frame can't hurt, especially in this age of smokeless powder.
The 1873 is a better design, probably more rugged over the long term, and easier to find accessories for. Unless you have a specific reason for a Henry or 1866, such as role-playing, I'd go with the 1873.

Frankly, I don't have much use for the .38-40. It's a good round, but I never quite understood why it was ever introduced. It's already so close to the .44-40 that you might as well get a .44-40.
The difference is .029 bullet diameter, and 20 grains of lead, but the same powder charge (in the original black powder loading). I mean, huh?
Today, finding .38-40 brass, ammo and components is more difficult than finding .44-40 items.
Stick with the .44-40.

I'd avoid the .45 Long Colt in the 1873, by the way. Been reading reports for years how it doesn't feed as reliably in that caliber. I'm a history buff too, so chambering the 1873 for .45 would be like putting a Volkswagen engine on a Conestoga wagon, to my mind.

My rifle has a .429 inch bore. I use 200 gr. bullets I cast, or buy, that are sized to .429 inch. Accuracy is good.
My favorite load is 6.8 grains of Hodgdon HP-38 or Winchester 231 (same powders, from the same plant, but packaged with different names) under a .429 inch lead bullet. This gives me just under 1,100 feet per second from a 24-inch barrel -plenty good for punching holes in paper and cans.

I've not had ONE collapsed case from crimping. I think the problem lies in too many reloaders trying to set speed records. I've been around these types, and they're just jamming things in and working the press handle up and down like a water pump!
Slow down, ensure the bullet is seated decently straight in the case before raising the ram into the bullet seating die. Once that is done, a medium crimp is all that's needed. You don't have to put a lot of pressure on a .44-40 crimp.
The rifle's weight reduces recoil to almost nothing, so there's not much danger of bullet setback by recoil.
If possible, choose a lead bullet design with a crimping groove, in which to turn the case mouth into. This requires that all cases be trimmed to the same length, however.

I cast the Lyman 427098, made for the .44-40, but it lacks a crimping groove. This particular bullet design dates back to the 19th century, when black powder was the only propellant. No crimping groove was needed because the bullet rested upon the compressed black powder; it couldn't be pushed back into the case.
However, with smokeless powder taking up so little room in the case, you run the risk of the bullet getting pushed back into the case. A crimping groove eliminates this problem.

I cast my 427098 bullet of pure lead, or nearly so. They actually come out about 210 grs. Then I load them over 35 grains of Goex FFFG over a standard PISTOl primer. That's right, .44-40 brass is designed to take pistol primers, not rifle primers. I've never had a problem igniting that 35 grs. of black powder with a pistol primer. Magnum primers are not needed.

I started with Lee dies, which work fine with jacketed bullets, but had difficulty getting my lead bullets seated squarely in the case. There was often a small bulge on one side of the neck, indicating that the bullet was seated a little kerslonchwise.
So, I bought some RCBS Cowboy dies, which are designed for lead bullets. That cured the problem. Such dies are pricey, but worth it in the long run.

Sure, you can use FFG black powder in the .44-40 case. Ignition may be affected a bit, and velocities may be lower. If you use FFG, I'd switch to a Magnum primer if ignition becomes a problem. But there's no reason you can't use it. Whether it will be as accurate as FFFG remains to be seen.

As for powder compression, put in enough powder so that it's about 1/8 inch below the mouth of the sized and primed case. Do this with a couple of cases, then weigh it. This will tell you your powder charge.
In my Winchester cases, which tend to be thinner than Remington, this comes out at 35 grains. In Remington, it's about 33.
Your bullet should compress the black powder just a little, but never so much that you have to bear down on the press handle. It's hard to describe, but you know it once you feel it; it comes with experience.

Hope the above helps.