» Advanced

Go Back   Shooters Forum > Leverguns > Leverguns and Their Cartridges (General)
Register FAQ Members List Donate Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read



Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-12-2009, 11:59 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 170
30/30 Range?


Registered Users do not see the above ad.


What do you all suppose the max range for a 336 Marlin 30/30 with Remington round nose 170s with a max load of 3031 would be? I witnessed some amazing accuracy out of this combo. It was pretty impressive. I am concerned my nephew may make a hit on a deer at distance and not have enough oomff to kill it. His placement is very good, but when does this run out of effective power? He may need a new rifle I suspect.

AL
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-12-2009, 02:23 PM
Old Grump's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Little hut in the woods
Posts: 676
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavitation View Post
What do you all suppose the max range for a 336 Marlin 30/30 with Remington round nose 170s with a max load of 3031 would be? I witnessed some amazing accuracy out of this combo. It was pretty impressive. I am concerned my nephew may make a hit on a deer at distance and not have enough oomff to kill it. His placement is very good, but when does this run out of effective power? He may need a new rifle I suspect.

AL
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=18986
__________________
Roman Catholic, Life Member of American Legion, VFW, Wisconsin Libertarian party, Wi-FORCE, WGO, NRA, JPFO, GOA, SAF and CCRKBA
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-12-2009, 02:24 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 199
For hunting, 200yds is a long shot with a .30/30, and I use 150gn projectiles. The 170 won't shoot quite as flat, but if you're confident you can place your shot accurately at that range, then the cartridge will do its job.
I usually use a .30/30 when the terrain will limit most of my shooting to within 100yds. Yes, they will shoot further, and I have shot a 1000yd "buffalo rifle" match with my single shot .30/30 and 200gn cast bullets, and hit the target as often as most of the larger calibres.
But you can't wound a target. Ethics dictate that you should keep your shots close when hunting, especially with moderate rounds such as the .30/30. I would think that the .30/30 would have enough velocity remaining at 300yds to drive that bullet into the vitals of a deer, but I wouldn't attempt a shot at this distance. Hope this helps.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-12-2009, 02:46 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,443
Well if your gonna wanna stretch the distance with the 30-30 use leverevolution ammo, and 250 yard shots on deer wouldnt be a problem, might even be able to stretch that a bit more.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-12-2009, 03:24 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 3,008
The .30-30 can be effective at 1000 yards if you can hit what you're shooting at. Sure, the speed and energy are way down, but placement is much more important -- and if you think the idea of effectiveness at that range is absurd, I invite you to stand way out there and let a real rifleman lob shots at you.

Now, do I mean you should USE a .30-30 at that range? Heck, no! But I bring it up just to illustrate how ridiculous "maximum effective range" questions are. Fact is, I know many shooters who can make superbly effective use of the .30-30 to 300 yards, and others for whom 25 yards is too far, by far. For any and all practical purposes, it is the shooter that has a max effective range, not the cartridge.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-12-2009, 04:59 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 1,398
I've taken a buck at 125yds with one. My uncle killed a doe a couple weeks ago at just over 150yds with the same rifle (Marlin 336).
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-13-2009, 04:54 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavitation View Post
. I am concerned my nephew may make a hit on a deer at distance and not have enough oomff to kill it. His placement is very good, but when does this run out of effective power? He may need a new rifle I suspect.
kid should be good to a couple hundred yards, if he's precise. In the woods where I hunt, that would be a very, very, very long ways, two hundred real yards.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-13-2009, 12:35 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 170
He is hitting a 10 inch gong at 276 yards with a front rest. I have had levers myself in 35 rem .30/30 and 450 marlin. I never even tried to shoot more than 200 yards for practice all my shots on game are like 50 feet. I think he needs a new rifle maybe a 308Win.

AL
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-14-2009, 03:38 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mooresville, IN
Posts: 8,844
Mpbr

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavitation View Post
He is hitting a 10 inch gong at 276 yards with a front rest. I have had levers myself in 35 rem .30/30 and 450 marlin. I never even tried to shoot more than 200 yards for practice all my shots on game are like 50 feet. I think he needs a new rifle maybe a 308Win.

AL
To expand on what Barkbuster said...

I think what many folks are asking with questions along these lines is how far away can a given cartridge, sighted in a certain way, consistently hit a target of a certain size. I say this because, as Pisgah pointed out, if you hit exactly where you aim, it doesn't take much bullet or energy to kill a deer. The problem then becomes what trajectory is involved with making that perfect hit.

When calculating maximum point blank range (MPBR) you determine the height of your kill zone (usually around 8", on a deer), the height of your scope/open sights, the muzzle velocity (MV) and ballistic coefficient (BC). These numbers are then used to determine at what distance your bullet's travel will be 4" above, and when it will fall 4" below, line of sight. For the vast majority of shooters, regardless of what your laser range finder is telling you, MPBR is the longest shot you should take. This presumes you have calculated that number AND practiced at that distance until you can quite consistently hit that 8" circle. For those who do not practice at that range, they should not even attempt a shot at the MPBR for their cartridge.

With high MV and a good BC, you can reach out past 300 yards with many cartridges and reasonably expect to hit what you're aiming at. The 30/30 Winchester is not one of those cartridges!

"Set up a scoped .30-30 for its maximum point blank range (+/- 3") and the trajectory of the Winchester Supreme 150 grain factory load looks like this: +2.9 inches at 100 yards, +0.1" at 200 yards, -3.0" at 235 yards. The trajectory of the standard 170 grain factory load looks like this: +2.9" at 100 yards, +1.8" at 200 yards, -3.0" at 211 yards.

The 160 grain Hornady LeverEvolution factory load does a little better. Here is its trajectory: +2.9" at 100 yds, -0.2" at 200 yds, -3" at 232 yards."

The quoted information above is from Chuck Hawk's site and presumes a 6" target height. With that information, the load you specifically asked about is good out to a little past 200 yards. An 8" target height would allow shooting a little further out...perhaps 225 yards. Keep in mind that at these distances, the bullet is dropping very quickly, so calculating the exact range and then determining where to aim becomes quite complicated. (Also, this takes into the realm of "shooting" and away from hunting, but that is a whole different topic...one that is often hotly debated on this forum.)

As shown above, the LeverEvolution bullet has a better BC, so it retains velocity longer, which equates to more energy at longer distances. With sufficient practice, you could reasonably expect to not only consistently hit your target at ~250 yards, but still have the energy to make a lethal hit on a deer. If he won't be happy with killing a deer at 250 yards, with a gun that is 115 years old, I guess you can step him up to a 308 Winchester and slay things at 300+ yards.

With the way your nephew is shooting, I'd suggest leaving very-well-enough alone and just picking up some of the Hornady ammo to give him that 250 yard range/energy. Site in 3.5" high at 100 yards and that would be consistent with the shooting distance he's already practicing at, leaving nothing to be desired, as far as cleanly harvesting a deer.
__________________
Ask me about QDMA.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-14-2009, 06:40 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 21
have him shoot at a 6" circle at 200 yards a few times. From a rest, and then offhand.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-16-2009, 12:09 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Nortwuds Wisconsin
Posts: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowtail3 View Post
have him shoot at a 6" circle at 200 yards a few times. From a rest, and then offhand.
Being able to hit at estimated ranges, and not measured range is important as you get out to the rainbow end of trajectory.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-18-2009, 06:18 AM
Davers's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 2,545
The .30-30 is good for up to 150 yards.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-18-2009, 01:05 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogwai View Post
Being able to hit at estimated ranges, and not measured range is important as you get out to the rainbow end of trajectory.
yep.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davers View Post
The .30-30 is good for up to 150 yards.
...and somewhat further, I'd say. I shot this deer Weds at 130-150 yards (paced off best I could in swamp) and hit him in the heart, just a little lower than I'd aimed. I've got my rifle zero'd at fifty yards; I should have it set for about 150ish. If I did, I'd show a max ordinate of no more than 2" at around 100, and I'd be good to near 200.

I'll do that next year. Here he is - again
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-18-2009, 01:13 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 3,008
The longest range I've killed a deer with a .30-30 was a (later) measured 210 yards. After my buddy missed him clean, twice, with his .30-06 I hit him , first shot, right behind the shoulder with a 150 gr. Corelokt. He flinched, walked in a small tight circle, and fell about 10' from where he had been standing.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-18-2009, 03:51 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,532
Broom JM summed it up pretty well, but here are a few specifics on your Remington bullet.
First, here is Nick’s disclaimer:

CAUTION: This post discusses loads or load data that equals or exceeds published maximums for the cartridge(s) mentioned. Neither the writer, The Shooter's Forum, nor the staff of The Shooter's Forum assume any liability for damage or injury resulting from using this information. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO DUPLICATE THE DESCRIBED LOADS without first working them up from a published safe starting level charge while watching for pressure signs. If you don't know how to do that, don't try.


I believe the 170-grain round nose Remington bullet has a BC of .254 – rather higher than I thought. This bullet loaded ahead of 31.0 grains of IMR 3031 chronographs a little over 2,150 fps for me. Read the disclaimer above, this load is now over-maximum in most books. To be honest there is not a lot of difference between a 31.0 and a 30.0 grain load of IMR 3031 behind a 170-grain bullet in most lever action rifles.
If we use a 7” target circle with the 170-grain round nose Remington bullet traveling at 2,150 fps we are able to sight in at 150 yards and have a point blank range of 188 yards. At 200 yards your bullet would be 5” low with remaining velocity at 1,579 fps and 941 fpe.

If you are willing to sight in at 180 yards you have a point blank range on the 7” circle of 211 yards. At 100 yards your bullet is 3.3” high which is acceptable.
Even the wonderful 170-grain Speer bullet will not give you a significantly better trajectory.
__________________
slim

Last edited by William Iorg; 12-18-2009 at 03:53 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-18-2009, 05:44 PM
Oneeye66's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Western Michigan
Posts: 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by pisgah View Post
The longest range I've killed a deer with a .30-30 was a (later) measured 210 yards. After my buddy missed him clean, twice, with his .30-06 I hit him , first shot, right behind the shoulder with a 150 gr. Corelokt. He flinched, walked in a small tight circle, and fell about 10' from where he had been standing.
Good shooting. I cannot see 110 yards in most of my spots, let alone 210 yards. On the rare occasion that I do sit on a field, I will pull out my 300 Win. Mag.
Dan
__________________
"I'll keep my God, my freedom, my guns, and my money.

You can keep "THE CHANGE."
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-28-2009, 06:54 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Lancaster County, Pennsylvania
Posts: 956


This is my so-called long range 30-30 load. The pointed tip and lighter weight flattens trajectory to make 225 yard shots with confidence. This Sierra bullet is intended as a fast mushrooming varmint bullet for .308 or 30-06. But at 30-30 velocity, it behaves like a good big game bullet. That is, the bullet expands nicely into a deadly mushroom and holds together for deep penetration. The lethal performance of this speedy bullet is impressive, indeed.

The pointed tip is unsafe for tubular magazines. Either load one in chamber and one in magazine for a two shot capacity, or you can clip the tip off and hand-file a flat tip.

Handload data is available from many printed sources. I load for BEST accuracy instead of hottest velocity. Safety is always a prime factor for me.

TR
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-29-2009, 08:27 PM
gomerdog's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 274
Wow! That's an old box of Sierra's. I once used this same bullet in my '06 to hunt antelope in the late 1970's. Load was not max, but close. At 150 yards the bullet completely penetrated and the buck may have taken a step or two before stumbling to the ground. There was no more ruined meat than if I had used a 150 grain bullet, and a darn sight less than my 25/06 did with 117 grain Sierra's a few years later.

On the same day, my hunting buddy shot a buck using a factory load with 125 grain bullets in an '06 as well. Same result. One shot and a dead antelope.

I don't think I'd use the bullet on anything bigger, though.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-29-2009, 11:55 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mooresville, IN
Posts: 8,844
At one time, Sierra made .308 and .284 caliber bullets specifically for hunting at pistol velocities, (think 30 Herrett from a 10" Contender barrel) but it seems they have discontinued that line. Fortunately the BT's from Nosler fill that void pretty well.
__________________
Ask me about QDMA.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-09-2010, 10:17 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Caldwell, ID
Posts: 776
.

"The pointed tip is unsafe for tubular magazines. Either load one in chamber and one in magazine for a two shot capacity, or you can clip the tip off and hand-file a flat tip."

Really? I have shooting that bullet for years but now I shoot the one's made by Speer. I load the magazine up and bang away. What's unsafe?

.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Best scope for range shooting Oldoneeye Rifle, Shotgun and Handgun Scopes 14 06-02-2012 11:40 PM
303 Range? TrxR Rifles and Rifle Cartridges 8 03-26-2009 07:03 AM
Point Blank sionaprhys Rifles and Rifle Cartridges 14 01-26-2009 06:48 PM
Gun Club Rifle pistol range Minneapolis, MN Gyroboy01 My Neck-Of-The-Woods 0 07-27-2008 07:12 PM
The 45-70 at longer ranges oldfordjr Leverguns and Their Cartridges (General) 10 08-17-2005 11:02 AM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:22 PM.

< Contact Us - Shooters Forum - Archive >

 
 

All Content & Design Copyright © 1999-2002 Beartooth Bullets, All Rights Reserved
View Privacy Policy | Contact Webmaster | Legal Information
Website Design & Development By Exbabylon Internet Solutions
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2