Shooters Forum banner

Marlin .454

14K views 47 replies 25 participants last post by  JNewell 
#1 ·
I like Marlin lever guns. Why wont they make a nice compact well made .454 Casull/.45 Colt like a certain overseas competitor has. You know the would sell like hotcakes! What is the deal? Is Marlin adverse to big sales? If ignoring this oppurtunity is some stupid ploy to promote their own calibers, well that is just dumb. I don't want a Marlin .308 or .444. I want a Marlin .454. Me and about 5 million other brush area deer hunters. What gives?
 
#3 ·
Well they are going to save money alright. If I want a big bore Marlin, I will buy a used one. Not much revenue in that for them. Now if they came out with a .454/.45 Colt carbine....
 
#7 · (Edited)
If you want my opinion, the answer is two-fold: The cost of developing a beefier frame, and the simple truth that I think you might be over-stating the demand. The other cartridges you named (308 ME and 444) as well as numerous other offerings, such as the 35 Remington and good ol' 30/30, will do everything you could possibly ask of a brush gun, so what void would a .454 Casull, in a lever-action, really fill? It would be more of a good thing, I suppose, but "more" is not indicated, based on the historical success of existing brush cartridges.

It would be much like the 348 Winchester, 356, 358, etc, etc...a few people clamor for them, but fewer still will actually buy them, when they are offered. Plus, IF Marlin made the investment in such a gun, it would be noticeably larger/heavier than existing models, which might keep many would-be buyers from coughing up the money to purchase one. If you really want more than the power of a 444 lever-action, you can always shoot 3" slugs out of semi-auto 12 gauge or get a 35 Whelen pump gun. Lots of existing options.

A T/C Encore can be chambered in .454, with a carbine barrel. That would give you an easy carrying gun with some real authority, at woods ranges and allow you to shoot gentler 45LC rounds through it. Only thing missing would be that much-talked-about-but-rarely-relevant quick follow-up shot.
 
#8 ·
The other cartridges you named (308 ME and 444) as well as numerous other offerings, such as the 35 Remington and good ol' 30/30, will do everything you could possibly ask of a brush gun, so what void would a .454 Casull, in a lever-action, really fill?
I just want one. I think a lot of other folks would too. Marlin has appeal and so does that round. Americans pretty much invented lever guns and for sure the .454. If Puma/Rossi can do it, why can't Marlin? Have they invented some kind of magic pixie dust based metal in Brazil that Marlin can't use? I know at least three other guys who would gobble a Marlin .454 up if they had the chance.
 
#11 ·
I agree the average shooter would have little idea of the recoil of a 454 carbine.
The 44 Magnum rifles rough me up considerably at the bench with heavy bullet loads. The 44’s are not so bad from the standing position. If you want to be pushed around both standing and at the bench shoot the iron sighted TC carbine in 44 Magnum with 250-grain or heavier bullets. The iron sighted TC carbine weighs less than 6 pounds and without a pad it is a handful.

Marlin Collector and John Kort started a thread about the 322-grain Lyman 457122HP bullet for the 45 Colt. My bullets come out nearly 40-grains heavier with my soft alloy and while the recoil is not too bad when fired from the bench; they do get your attention.

Personally I never gave a thought to the “cheeks” on the Winchester Big Bore rifles but they do come in for their fair share of criticism.
 
#13 ·
I agree the average shooter would have little idea of the recoil of a 454 carbine.
The 44 Magnum rifles rough me up considerably at the bench with heavy bullet loads. The 44’s are not so bad from the standing position. If you want to be pushed around both standing and at the bench shoot the iron sighted TC carbine in 44 Magnum with 250-grain or heavier bullets. The iron sighted TC carbine weighs less than 6 pounds and without a pad it is a handful.
I have a T/C Contender carbine in 44Mag and with hot 240gr XTP's, I don't find the recoil bad at all, but then I grew up shooting stuff like the 180gr 30-'06 loads, so maybe it's all a matter of perspective. I do have an after-market stock with a shape that fits me well and a decent recoil pad. My 12 year-old daughter shoots it and while she doesn't like it as much as the Model '92 in 44/40 (200gr slugs) she isn't afraid of it in any way. Compared to the 12 gauge slugs and sabots a lot of guys hunt with in Indiana, that 44Mag is a *****-cat! Maybe it's all in my head, but I've never fired a pistol cartridge from a rifle and thought, "Gee, that kicks a lot". What is a "magnum" in a 6" barreled revolver is pretty mild, by rifle standards.

According to one recoil chart, a 44Mag carbine kicks about the same (~11lbs) as a 30/30 shooting 170gr bullets, which is to say, not very much, imho.
 
#14 ·
The short answer is that Marlin actions are not strong enough to chamber the .454 Casull (I believe the Marlin actions are rated to around 45,000 psi vs. the 60,000 psi pressure levels of this cartridge). This is a potent round, loaded up to high powered rifle pressure levels (and it kicks like it, too). Rifles like the Puma in .454 and the new Big Horn Armory 89 in .500 S&W are based on Winchester 86/92 actions, with upgraded materials. Marlin would have to develop a new action to handle the round. It would probably have some measure of popularity here in Indiana, where we are limited to pistol cartridges in rifles, but I suspect the sales would not support the development. In most areas where hunters are not limited to pistol cartridges, the .45-70 will do the job just as well or better.
 
#15 ·
My Carbine

I have owned a LSI/Rossi chambered in 454 Casull for some time now. The recoil with full power loads can be compared to the 444's and the med/hot loaded 45-70's(which I own both). My weapon has the 16" bbl and the weight is <6lbs. This makes the felt/precieved recoil pretty stiff. The muzzle rise is more than my 444 and 45-70 although they are both carbines as well.

BUT.....the weapons cannot be compared simply because the 454 is a "pistol" round. Being short, the action can be cycled faster and the mag can hold more ammo. Not wanting to start a "battle" with the "self defense against the larger bear" people around here,but I would much rather have my Casull strapped to my back with it's 8+1,than either of my other carbines mentioned above. It will simply deliver more FPE than either of the other two.

'Nuther but......I also would love to see either Marlin or Winchester(I personally would pick Marlin)come out with a "92 designed in 454,and 460 and 500 S&W Mag. If the beefier weapon would weigh in at 7 lbs that would be even better as far as somewhat dampening the effects of recoil.

Now lets see.......a Marlin with fair looking wood for $750 or the others for $1800 ?? I know which one I would pick. -----pruhdlr
 
#16 ·
I have owned a LSI/Rossi chambered in 454 Casull for some time now. The recoil with full power loads can be compared to the 444's and the med/hot loaded 45-70's(which I own both). My weapon has the 16" bbl and the weight is <6lbs. This makes the felt/precieved recoil pretty stiff. The muzzle rise is more than my 444 and 45-70 although they are both carbines as well.

BUT.....the weapons cannot be compared simply because the 454 is a "pistol" round. Being short, the action can be cycled faster and the mag can hold more ammo. Not wanting to start a "battle" with the "self defense against the larger bear" people around here,but I would much rather have my Casull strapped to my back with it's 8+1,than either of my other carbines mentioned above. It will simply deliver more FPE than either of the other two.

'Nuther but......I also would love to see either Marlin or Winchester(I personally would pick Marlin)come out with a "92 designed in 454,and 460 and 500 S&W Mag. If the beefier weapon would weigh in at 7 lbs that would be even better as far as somewhat dampening the effects of recoil.

Now lets see.......a Marlin with fair looking wood for $750 or the others for $1800 ?? I know which one I would pick. -----pruhdlr
Amen brother!
 
#19 · (Edited)
What will a .454 do that a 45/70 won't? Aside from shorter OAL (leading to shorter lever throw), the 45/70 has superior ballistic capabilities and versatility, as well as lower operating pressures, giving it every advantage in a rifle that already exists.

Just my .02, Ryan
Nobody is saying anything negative about a .45-70. Myself and a lot of people I know and have talked to would just like a .454 Marlin. I know some guys in Alaska that carry .454 sidearms and they would like a compatable carbine. I know plenty of guys in the midwest (I assume they exist in the south and east as well) who would like a .454 carbine by Marlin. Being familiar with both firearms and business, I am not buying that the re-tooling cost would keep them from making a profit. What has to be done to make a lever gun .454 capable is known. There is not profit without earning it. R&D, engineering, marketing, production. Are we ready to admit the Brazilians can do this better than Americans? There are plenty of fine looking used .45-70 and .444 Marlins at every gun store I go to. Those are 150 to 200 yd guns, so you are not worried about accuracy as much as you do a used bolt gun. MOA is not as critical. What I mean is, if you see a used .270 in a rack, you think "must not be an MOA shooter, or the owner would not have parted with it". That is not always true of course, but that is what you think. Not so, with a .45-70 or .444. They don't need to be MOA, because you are not looking to stretch them out. (No doubt I'm going to get responses about guys driving tacks at 350 yds with a .444 now - save it please). The bottom line is, revenue is there to be had for Marlin from folks like me pruhdlr in .454s.

.444s and .45-70s? Not so much. There are lots of good clean used ones.
 
#20 ·
I can see your point as it would give near 45-70 performance with a lighter, shorter package that's understood and desireable. But as stated the Marlin 1894/1895 actions are not strong enough. Marlin would have to develop something new. Or how about a Savage 99 in .454, 460, or 500 S&W. I would send a letter to Marlin suggesting what you want.

CD
 
#21 · (Edited)
Yeah I suppose we could write them. If it takes me writing a letter to open their eyes to the market, well, then Marlin is hurting. The simplest form of market research would reveal this.

I wonder, could a .460 lever gun be made that would also cycle and chamber .454 and .45 Colt rounds? Likewise could a .357max lever gun use .357mag and .38 rounds?
 
#25 ·
H&R chambers the very similar (pressure-wise) 500 S&W cartridge, but I've heard that quite a few guns have experienced problems with the actions popping open after the shot. I personally hunted with a guy recently who used a 460S&W out of an Encore but from the gunsmiths I've talked to, that is really too much backthrust, given the size of the case head being used. I'm sure a lever-action could be created that will handle the job, I just wonder about the resulting size and weight. Then again, with cartridges that kick as much as those do, more weight is not a bad thing.
 
#24 ·
The .454 is a dandy cartridge - I used to refer to it as the .45-70 Short Magnum. I have a 9 lb 1885 in .454, and it kicks quite solidly with full-power loads, but punches a 300 grain bullet out at over 1900 fps. On the other hand, you can load it down to .45 Colt levels for some very easy-on-the-shoulder practice. It's an easy to load cartridge with some very good accuracy potential.

One disadvantage of the .454 used to be the .451/452 bullets available, when compared to the .458 bullets. Now with Hornady's FTX bullets and similar, there's a pretty good selection.
 
#26 ·
I am enjoying this subject because I was just looking into the same question about a .454 levergun
while I was researching handgun hunting. I found a few great spots last year where a handgun would
be ideal. I don't own a handgun for hunting yet so I was checking out various calibers and such. It makes perfect sense to buy something that you could load into a levergun. I would seriously consider
buying a .454 Marlin if they made it, but they don't so I reckon I'll have to settle on a .44mag. It
will suit my hunting needs perfectly. However, I like the idea Bird Dog........
 
#28 · (Edited)
Yes,But....Kinda,Maybe.....

The little carbine that I mentioned in the above has handled some(just guessing)300+ full power loads of the 265,300,335,and 360 grain weight since I bought it new in 2004. It has only shot hand loads and all of them have been simi-hot to HOT(!).

Say what you want about LSI/Puma but the weapon has withstood all the associated pressures and still locks up tight. Owning the exact same weapon with the Marlin or Winchester name stamped on it would be a plus,however how big a plus is debatable.

I feel that you cannot compare some of the other chamberings to the high pressure pistol rounds simply with the case head thrust argument. With the bigger and longer rifle chamberings such as the 375 and Rigby(and any 60K+psi loading) there is allot more brass to grab the chamber wall upon powder ignition. This helps allot to limit case head thrust. The little high pressure pistol rounds such as the 454,460,and 500 don't have allot of brass to stick them to the chamber walls.

I am not sure about the case body taper of any of these pistol or rifle chambering also. Obviously the more taper,the more thrust.

I also feel that given the total overall length(with the same LOP),the total overall weight,and the mag capacity of the small'ish,high pressure,pistol rounds,your total energy delivery is somewhat mo-bedda. I have stated before that I would much rather have my Casull on my back in bear country,than any 444Marlin OR 45-70. This,I still feel.

Another thing that I have noticed is the swing-ability to target. I own a 16" Marlin 1895 and a Marlin Guide Gun and have found neither as swing-able as the little Puma. I find it allot easier to track a hog hauling' A$$ thru the thick palmettos or the clumps of swamp bamboo than with the other two weapons mentioned. For the spot and stalk kinda hunts in the river swamp,I find myself carrying the Casull for almost every hunt.

We all have certain requirements of a small,light,leaver action carbine. To me it's energy transfer,length,weight,and reliability. River swamp hunting the bigger boar hogs,ammo capacity and quick cycling is also a big plus. At least for me. -----pruhdlr
 
#30 ·
Don't forget that in 2004 Marlin made an attempt to offer the 1895RL chambered in 475 Linebaugh/480 Ruger. They needed to use the 1895 frame to accommodate the cartridge diameter but they encounter cartridge feed issues similar to the 336-44. It never made it out the door and was shelved.
 

Attachments

#37 ·
I think the answer for Bird Dog II is a puma 92 and personally I think the M0D 92 in Win or Rossi are much prettier than the Marlin mind you I like the Marlin also. The only advantage to the marlin is scope mounting. One thing that could be done is to put a recoil dampener in the stock. I just read something recently about a new product just for that purpose I don't remember the name though.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top