Shooters Forum banner

.444 Marlin, .450 Marlin, or .45-70

34K views 50 replies 31 participants last post by  Tnhunter 
#1 ·
I'm looking at possibly getting a new lever gun in .444 Marlin, .450 Marlin, or .45-70 for black bear hunting in the east. Lots of brush. I've shot a .45-70 rolling block or falling block (can't remember which) at the range, and really enjoyed it, but I've never shot the .444 or .450. Just wanted to get some feedback on the velocity, accuracy, stopping power, recoil, and muzzle blast of each of these three rounds, as well as the ammo availability and cost of each. Thanks.
 
#2 ·
All good choices. Do you reload? It makes some difference, as these are not the most common rounds. Much of the versatility comes with reloading.

Ported or non ported barrels and barrel length probably make more difference for muzzle blast that the cartridge selection.
 
#4 ·
I have both a 444 and a 45-70 Marlin. I like the 444 because it uses the same bullets as my 44 mag and 44 special which makes it economical to reload for. The 45-70 shoots a little larger bullet if you are going after heavier game and the ammo is a lot more available than the 444 or 450 if you don't reload. Any of the guns you have listed will take anything on the N American continent.
 
#5 ·
Marshall has some good articles on the .444. It may be more difficult to find ammo for, but is going to have a bit less recoil than the .450, or heavy .45-70.

All good. I would go with whichever one is easiest to get components for. Enjoy!
 
#7 ·
I follow the theorem that if you can't make up your mind acquire them ALL! Which I have......love the singularity of the short barrelled guide gun in 450 and the diversity of the 45-70(powder puff to magnum loads) and the timelessness of the 444........especialy when teamed with the 444 lever round from hornady.....DO NOT forget the 1894 in 44 and 41 calibers....definte bear stoppers with the chance to throw 50 to 100% more lead out there prior to reloading over the trabitional big bore 3 you are considering.....also 44 mag ammo is readily available and you can buy 50 rounds for less than the price of one box of 450/444/45-70 ammo.........and don't leave out the 35 rem....most underappreciated cartidge out there.......get some Buffalo Bore ammo and your eyes will be opened....all will stop a black bear post haste.....but if in the range of the brown/grizzly I will pack my 450 Marlin.....3 rounds of 350 gr FP followed by 2 rounds of Buffalo Bore Hard cast rounds......then a prayer
 
#8 ·
Da Three

I own a 1895(45-70) and a Marlin Outfitter(444Marlin) I have never owned a 450.

These are some of my thoughts on the three.

A 45-70 puts out the same power as a 450 if hand loaded. Think of a 450 as a belted 45-70 and more web in the case. If you hand load you can easily bring the 45-70 up to the power levels of the 450. You cannot find low power 450 rounds. You cannot find high power 45-70 rounds unless you pay big(huge!) money for them. If you want power and do not hand load you gotta buy a 450 unless your rich. You have a very limited number of bullet choices with factory 450 and 45-70. Factory rounds are not everywhere in 450. They are in 45-70. Hand loading either will produce more power than your shoulder will allow.

Factory loadings in 444Marlin are somewhat limited. So are the power levels. The bullet selection is somewhat dismal also. It is hard to find the 444 on shelves of the sporting goods stores,also most gun shops will "order it for you" at best. If being hand loaded to the higher power levels,and using the right bullets,the 444 will kill the majority of the largest game on earth. It will certainly take,elk,moose,caribou,black bear,zebra,and the like.

All three that you mentioned above are great rounds. The 450 being an answer to a problem that was never asked. My choice would be the 45-70 and hand loading. it's a real thumper. ----pruhdlr
 
#9 ·
I own all three; an 1895/45-70, a Marlin .444S and a BLR/.450. All are nice rifles and I hunt with them all. A couple of points not yet made that might be worth a mention. If you get a new Marlin in either 45-70 or .444, you'll also get the hammer block safety on it. It's a cross-bolt type, but it blocks the hammer from striking the FP (NOT the trigger from tripping). Lots of opinions on it's merit and I'll just say that it does make the rifle a good bit safer, especially when loading and unloading. Of course that type rifle got by for 100+ years with just a half-notch (half-c0ck) safety before the hammer block was added. Either way, the gun needs to be carried at half-c0ck with a loaded chamber, to be safe, either with the hammer block on or off. Some owners detest the 2nd safety.

The BLR does not have a tubular magazine and can utilize pointed bullets in it's removeable box magazine (if you are going to reload). Loading and unloading can be done more safely, and it does not have a hammer block safety. The action is stronger than the Marlin's. It does have a safety-type half-c0ck position however, but it also can be carried safely full hammer down on a loaded chamber as well. (transfer bar type system). The BLR has a shorter throw lever and smoother action than the Marlin's. I can also promise you'll never have a "Marlin jam" with a BLR.

As I said, I own and like all three calibers and the two types of rifles mentioned here. Personal preference accounts for a good deal in any firearm purchase. Some people like Marlins, some like BLRs. Me, I like them both just fine. I know and understand their differences and enjoy both types of rifles. Just thought you might want to know that information, before you made your choice. My opinion is that the 45-70 might be the most versatile of the three. If you do not handload then the .450 gives a significant increase in power over typical 45-70 loadings, while costing just slightly more. The .444 gets left out of a lot of big bore lever discussions and that should not be the case as it's a fine round. My .444S is as accurate as either .458, and maybe even more so. Plenty of power with either of the 265gr loads for bear, IMO.

(Have you thought about the .358/BLR or .338/Marlin ??)
 
#23 ·
I have a .444 in single shot. It shoots significantly flatter than the .45-70, and the Leverevolution ammo makes it effective to a fair distance. Mine is very accurate as well.
When both are loaded to their potential in Marlin lever guns, given equal bullet sectional density, the 45-70 will drive a bullet of similar construction and configuration at least as fast as the 444 Marlin, and given equal bullet weight, the 45-70 will drive a bullet of similar construction and configuration significantly faster than the 444 Marlin. Hence, the 45-70 will shoot just as "flat" as the 444 Marlin, and will deliver more energy to the target and more recoil to the shooter.
 
#13 · (Edited)
If either of the fellas who asked about the "Marlin jam" would take a minute and slide on over to the Marlin Owners Forum, I'm sure you'll find out a good bit about it. From the reading I've done there It is a fairly common occurence, leaving a jammed lever in the open position and bullets trapped in the tube. Most of the time the easy cure is to remove the lever and bolt and the jammed carrier can be loosened bullets removed and gun put back together. The problem is that tools are required to take apart the rifle rendering it unuseable in the field, should it occur. I can assure you that I did not give this type problem this name, but rather learned of it and it's name from the forum I mentioned. Yes, I have encountered one.

http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php

here's a few of the posts there reference the "jam", simply type in "Marlin jam" in the search box there are 13 pages of entries

http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php?action=search2
 
#12 · (Edited)
I'm not sure what a "Marlin Jam" is as I've never had one despite thousands of rounds through my four Marlin Big Bores. I have a 444P, 444T, 1895G (45-70), and a 1895MR (450 Marlin). I do think the 450 Marlin is a smoother feeding cartridge but none of them can compare to the 444, especially the 444T that uses a lifter on the carrier to level the cartridge before it is slid into the chamber. I also don't think the bear is going to notice any difference.
 
#33 ·
The "Marlin jam" is an issue with the carrier having a worn area that prevents it's raising high enough to properly feed the cartridge. It occurs only in the model 94s and is never experienced in a 336. Unfortunately, many Marlin owners do not understand the "Marlin jam" and call anything and everything in the way of a malfunction in a Marlin a Marlin jam. While it is true that BLRs do not experience Marlin jams, the opposite is also true, Marlins do not experience BLR jams.

.
 
#15 ·
I have owned and fired all 3 calibers. The .450 was NOT pleasant to fire. I shot it 3 times and dumped the rifle. Nothing in the East including the 500 pound black bears we have here in eastern NC requires that much power. The .444 has more power than the 45-70 and a corresponding recoil. Again more power than you need and harder to find ammo than 45-70. That boils down to 45-70. The trapdoors, rolling blocks, and falling blocks you have fired have much milder recoil in this caliber than you can expect from the lever gun, weight and stock design are the factors.
 
#17 ·
I hunt large game with my Marlin 444 and my 1895 in 45-70. Both are excelent for big game. I use bullets that I cast with my Ranch Dog molds in rifles. Never had a jam, have taken a few deer and one bear. None have complained to me about the differences.

Jerry
 
#20 ·
I myself own a 1895 Guide Gun in 45-70. Have shot a .444 but not a 450marlin. My vote goes to the 45-70 with a good cast bullet, pushed at moderate speed. Boy it makes a thump when it gets there!
 
#25 ·
SavageHunter, if all you're looking for is to kill eastern black bear, all of them will do the job. I hunt moose and black bear as well as deer. Many years ago I settled on the .444 Marlin and have never looked back. It is simply awesome and will kill the biggest beasts you will encounter.

The .450 has significant recoil and far more power than you need for blackies, the .45-70 suffers from trajectory issues unless you are willing to subject yourself to the same recoil levels as the .450. The .444 is an honest 200yard gun with more than enough horsepower. Handloaded, it will equal the best loadings of the other two, with the exception of the extreme heavyweight loads. And it will do it all with excellent accuracy.

I'm not trying to start up the old dumb argument of .45-70 vs .444. They are both awesome. I'm just relating my experience. Read Marshal Stanton's work on the .444 in the Tech Notes section. It is very informative.
 
#26 · (Edited)
Here is a bit more information that might influence you, what is the best buy! I figured out how to track internet sale prices on AA and GB a little over five years ago and here are the average sale prices of some specific models in my data base.

444
444 (old production, pre "S") - $425
444 (current production, NIB) - $463
444S - $418
444SS - $397
444P - $460
444T (24" barrel rifles) - $409

45-70
1895 (old production, pre "S") - $430
1895 (current production, NIB) - $513
1895G - $476
1895S - $538
1895SS - $476

450 Marlin
1895M - $455
1895MR - $528

To help you wade through the models
  • Old production rifles and the 444T had straight grip stocks.
  • S (Sporter) rifles introduced the pistol grips now used in current production rifles and the discontinued MR.
  • SS rifles are the Sporter with the "side safety" which is also used in the current production rifles, the MR, and the carbines.
  • Finally, the carbines are the G, M, and P with straight grip stocks, 18 1/2" ported barrels, and "side safety".
In a nutshell, don't bother with a used rifle. In most cases you can buy a NIB 444 or 1895 for less. A 444 will cost $50 less than a 1895. If you are going to go with the 1895 in 45-70, stay away from the S or SS as a current production rifle is less than the auction prices on these used rifles.

As far as the carbines go, very few "M"s turn up, the average price listed above is primarily new rifles. I guess the owners are satisfied with them. The average above for "G"s is a strong mix of used rifles and some new (my database tracks all these rifles by their condition but that information is beyond this topic). "P"s are moving into the 375, 336ER, etc. class. They are a good value now, if you can find one, but they have become few and far between.

The 1895MR is a very rare rifle and a pleasure to shoot. I think the 450 Marlin cycles from magazine tube to chamber so much smoother than the 45-70. The only thing that beats the cartridge cycle of the 450 Marlin is the early production 444 and 444T that uses a "lifter" on the carrier to level the cartridge before sliding it forward. That, is very slick.

I've never tracked anything other than these blued steel/walnut rifles as this is my area of interest. As of late, I find myself looking for and old production 1895 to round my battery out with. Just watching for a great buy.

Any of these rifles are way beyond adequate for use on any NA game animals.
 
#29 ·
If you ever cycled the 1895M against the 1895G, you would realize why a dangerous game guide might choose it as his Guide Gun. NO comparison in smoothness as the style of case makes a huge difference.

The 450 Marlin does one thing; it puts factory ammo on the average store shelf that will perform on tough game. The 45-70 does not offer that. Average store shelf ammo is anemic. The only thing the 450 doesn't offer is a nostalgic past.

As a reloader of all three cartridges (subject of topic) the ONLY thing I have against the 450 Marlin, despite my favorite being the 444, is that the rim of the 450 Marlin will give way as a sign of case life ending. The bad thing about this is that the case is stuck in the sizing die and must be extracted.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top