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  #1  
Old 01-20-2011, 05:07 PM
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Why do people hate the rebounding hammer?


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I was just curious why I have it on my Win AE and it doesn't bother me any and it doesn't take away from the looks. Is there a reliability problem with it?
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  #2  
Old 01-20-2011, 07:30 PM
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I don't have a problem with it, I do have a problem with the cross bolt safety. The rebounding hammer is just a way to prevent those who aren't swift enough to learn to use a half cock safety. I've used the half cock for so long, it's second nature to me and has been for most of my shooting life (that's about 45 years now)
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  #3  
Old 01-21-2011, 02:11 AM
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Not a lot of time to discuss a favorite gripe this morning. These threads will get you started. The rebounding hammer and the long take-up trigger are responsible for miss-fire issues with the Angle Eject Winchester rifle. As the quality dropped in the last days of USRA-Winchester the fitting became worse and there were more miss-fires.
Other reasons but the three threads will get you started. Good search engine and there are several more threads with this as the central topic. The rebounding hammer, long take-up trigger and the cross-bolt safety are all tied together to hurt the usefulness of the rifle.

http://shootersforum.com/showthread....ounding+hammer

http://shootersforum.com/showthread....ounding+hammer

http://shootersforum.com/showthread....ounding+hammer
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  #4  
Old 01-21-2011, 05:17 AM
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my beef with the rebounding hammer and saftey, either crossbolt or tang is that they are totally unnecessary. other than the lawyers what changed after 100yrs of production to necessitate these changes??
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  #5  
Old 01-21-2011, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baddad457 View Post
I don't have a problem with it, I do have a problem with the cross bolt safety. The rebounding hammer is just a way to prevent those who aren't swift enough to learn to use a half cock safety. I've used the half cock for so long, it's second nature to me and has been for most of my shooting life (that's about 45 years now)
I can see if your use to a certain way of doing things the change would cause some problems especially if your use to doing the half cock manually and out of habit then you might end up with it full cocked when you wanted half. By the way mine has no cross bolt or tang safeties so I got lucky there. I've had my 94AE for around 16 years now its the only lever I've owned so I have no experience with the older ones.
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  #6  
Old 01-21-2011, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William Iorg View Post
Not a lot of time to discuss a favorite gripe this morning. These threads will get you started. The rebounding hammer and the long take-up trigger are responsible for miss-fire issues with the Angle Eject Winchester rifle. As the quality dropped in the last days of USRA-Winchester the fitting became worse and there were more miss-fires.
Other reasons but the three threads will get you started. Good search engine and there are several more threads with this as the central topic. The rebounding hammer, long take-up trigger and the cross-bolt safety are all tied together to hurt the usefulness of the rifle.

http://shootersforum.com/showthread....ounding+hammer

http://shootersforum.com/showthread....ounding+hammer

http://shootersforum.com/showthread....ounding+hammer
Sorry William Iorg, I didn't think about it at the time I made my post. Well I can say that the trigger does have a long take up and the pull was heavy after the take up. After 16 years I finally did a deep cleaning of the action (boy did it need it) by taking it apart when I put it back together I used transmission fluid to lubricate the trigger and hammer area and I swear the pull weight went down but the cleaning could of did this. I haven't had light strikes so far but good to know its possible would this be caused by a week main spring or is there some other part of rebounding hammer that can cause this? The only problem I've had with it was on my last hunting trip the action got stuck in the closed position with a live round in the chamber for the life of me I could not cycle the action but finally it gave and worked fine rest of the hunt. I figured some dirt or debris got into it and caused the problem thats why I did the cleaning. Thanks for the links.
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  #7  
Old 01-21-2011, 02:34 PM
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Some of the models the rebounding hammer is easily converted, the model 39AS Marlin .22 lever is one.

Most that are currently using it can be changed to an earlier version by a simple aquistion and swap of parts.
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  #8  
Old 01-21-2011, 02:43 PM
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Sorry, did not intend to jump on you, this is one of my “pet peeves.” I enjoy the Big Bore Winchesters and their cartridges. Love to discuss them. You are fortunate to have a pre-safety rifle. The quality control during early production was good and the fit and finish on these rifles is high quality. Later when things were winding down at USRA-Winchester the fit was not good with regard to cartridge stops – double feed issues – and the two fingers which actuate the rebounding hammer. You will not as you look around the multiple threads on this issue that when the hammer is thumbed back to full cock and the trigger trips the sear the hammer begins to fall accelerated by the upper finger. As the hammer travels past the halfway point, the lower finger meets the hammer and begins to slow the hammers travel. If the lower finger is not properly adjusted for length, it will slow the hammer enough to cause light hammer strikes. This leaves light indents on the primer and causes miss-fires. Some primers are more prone to the problem and the “new” Winchester gold colored large rifle primer had a quite a problem with miss-fires in the late production Model 94 AE rifles when it appeared. There are several magazine articles dealing with the problem of the rebounding hammer and miss-fires. The new model 1886 rifle had quite a few issues with this for a while.
The inadvertent activation of the cross bolt safety is another problem, especially if you are using your rifle as a back up around dangerous animal – berry picking in Alaska for example.
I wrote two long letters to USRA Winchester about this and they replied with courteous and thoughtful letters. I was pleasantly surprised. A few years later, the tang safety appeared and I assumed this was due to consumer complaints about cosmetics than to inadvertent activation of the safety.
When I wrote Winchester, I mentioned the excellent hammer extension due to the drilled hammer which will not accelerate off the hammer and does not mark up the hammer the way the screw on extensions do. I told Winchester they were loosing the public relations war with Marlin as at the time the old Marlin Talk Board was operating. With the cosmetic advantage held by Marlin –no divot in the side of the receiver and the better trigger on the Marlin rifles, Winchester could not compete with the Marlin product. As quality control decreased at USRA-Winchester and Marlin improved their customer relations, the market share swung decidedly in favor of the Marlin rifle. Winchester will have a tough time re-entering this market. The current lever-action offerings from Winchesters are not truly competitive with the Marlin product due to the difference in triggers caused by the rebounding hammer and long take-up trigger. Winchester will have to offer exciting new versions of the product to overcome the serious drawback of the rebounding hammer and long take-up trigger. If Winchester still has the miss-fire issues, from poor fitting of the fingers, the consumer will reject their products - word gets around quickly in the internet age.


[EDIT]This link to the tune up article gives one of the better explanations as to how the trigger fingers operate. You will begin to see why people have a problem with the rebound hammer and the long take-up trigger.

http://www.time-slice.com/mohave.gam...nchester94.htm
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Last edited by William Iorg; 01-21-2011 at 03:01 PM.
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  #9  
Old 01-21-2011, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seasprite View Post
I can see if your use to a certain way of doing things the change would cause some problems especially if your use to doing the half cock manually and out of habit then you might end up with it full cocked when you wanted half. By the way mine has no cross bolt or tang safeties so I got lucky there. I've had my 94AE for around 16 years now its the only lever I've owned so I have no experience with the older ones.
You misunderstood what I was saying. I have never mistakenly fully cocked a rebounding hammer rifle to full cock. Having handled half cock safety guns for 45 years, it's second nature to click it to half cock after closing the action. The distance traveled by the hammer to half cock is about the same as where the rebounding hammer rests when the action is closed on these guns. "half cock" doesn't refer to the distance the hammer travels to the safety position. On a Winchester with half cock safety, there are three hammer positions: fully forward (as when the trrigger is pulled and the gun's fired), half cock, and fullly cocked, ready to fire. The rebouding hammer is as I said, a way to prevent those too lazy to perform this function with a half cock safety weapon
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  #10  
Old 01-22-2011, 07:31 AM
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No apology necessary William Iorg, thanks for the link it was an interesting read. I remember when I had it apart somehow I must rocked the hammer forward and almost lost my main spring. I'll have to remember to use a nail or paper clip next time I'm glad I got the fingers back in the right position because it can be installed upside down like the article said it just didn't look right to me so I put it the way it looked like it would function the best. I like to study mechanical devices before taking them apart so I understand how the work and relate to each other so I can get it back together right but didn't get a chance this time As far as the fingers go would you say if the bottom ones are to long this would cause the extra drag for the light strikes maybe stoning the lower fingers a little would help but how much and how would you test maybe with a primed case Well I'm hoping that since mine doesn't have this problem that I'm not going to see it but its nice to know whats up thanks for the education on the rebounding hammer.
This is my baby she shoots straight and tru I'll never sell it.
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  #11  
Old 01-22-2011, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baddad457 View Post
You misunderstood what I was saying. I have never mistakenly fully cocked a rebounding hammer rifle to full cock. Having handled half cock safety guns for 45 years, it's second nature to click it to half cock after closing the action. The distance traveled by the hammer to half cock is about the same as where the rebounding hammer rests when the action is closed on these guns. "half cock" doesn't refer to the distance the hammer travels to the safety position. On a Winchester with half cock safety, there are three hammer positions: fully forward (as when the trrigger is pulled and the gun's fired), half cock, and fullly cocked, ready to fire. The rebouding hammer is as I said, a way to prevent those too lazy to perform this function with a half cock safety weapon
Sorry baddad, I understand now my wife had a T-Bird that had automatic seatbelts for people that were to lazy to put them on their self.
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  #12  
Old 01-22-2011, 08:54 AM
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Yes, Winchester terms the part as the Hammer Spring Guide Rod. You can shorten the lower finger by stoning but do not remove too much. If too much material is removed, the hammer is in danger of touching the firing pin when at rest or being pushed into the firing pin.
You can do the same to the tang safety rifles which are set up differently. The “thing to do” for the tang safety rifles to prevent miss fires and inadvertent application of the safety is to remove a little more than .035” from the lower finger which lowers the hammer position when it is at rest. This prevents activation of the safety when the hammer is at rest. Extreme care must be taken when removing material from the strut of a tang safety rifle as the part is not available from Winchester.

When a young shooter is properly introduced to the open hammer lever action rifle he is taught to open the action to insure the rifle is unloaded and on closing the action to bring the hammer to half cock. This becomes ingrained in the young rifleman’s mind.
My wife and I have encountered a number of young shooters in recent years for whom this is not “second nature.” These shooters seem to have trouble bringing the hammer back and then lowering it to the half cock notch.
One young man pulled the hammer back on my wife’s Marlin Model 39M and dropped the hammer to the half cock notch. This cut a notch across the nose of the trigger and gave the rifle a two stage trigger pull. We pulled the trigger and stoned it with no difficulty but it brings up the point that kids today are not building things. They do not seem have a feel for mechanical devices. I was standing in a friend’s cotton field this week, “shuffling and spittin.” The farmer told me his son would rather play video games than drive his big tractor. Times change.
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  #13  
Old 01-22-2011, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by seasprite View Post
Sorry baddad, I understand now my wife had a T-Bird that had automatic seatbelts for people that were to lazy to put them on their self.
Yea, we had a Tempo that had those cursed things. Shut the door and you felt like the car was trying to trap you inside for some unspeakable horror it was about to inflict upon you.
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  #14  
Old 01-22-2011, 09:02 PM
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Those that like lever guns tend to be traditionalists. Maybe old fashioned . They resist new fangled buttons ,and unnecessary changes to a already perfected design. If they wanted a modern gun ,they would have bought a semi-auto!
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  #15  
Old 01-23-2011, 02:44 AM
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I have a marlin 1894 with Ballard Rifling and the cross-bolt safety. I usually do not use the safety. If I had used it on three specific occasions, it would have prevented this careless newbie from having 3 negligent discharges. Let me make a couple comments at this point. Never scope a lever gun until you can't see the sights well enough to shoot at distance and if you ever do scope it, use a hammer extension.
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  #16  
Old 01-23-2011, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Chief RID View Post
I have a marlin 1894 with Ballard Rifling and the cross-bolt safety. I usually do not use the safety. If I had used it on three specific occasions, it would have prevented this careless newbie from having 3 negligent discharges. Let me make a couple comments at this point. Never scope a lever gun until you can't see the sights well enough to shoot at distance and if you ever do scope it, use a hammer extension.
I know kinda like the rebounding hammer a lot of people don't like to scope their levers but me on the other hand I wanted to get the tightest groups possible and be able to go to 300 yards with the hornady ammo. So far I've limited my self to 200 yards right now because thats the farthest I can practice right now using Remington 170gr corelocks. If I could get the trigger pull a little lighter I think its capable of sub moa groups right now it shoots 1"moa. Never did like the hammer extensions either I know its suppose to be better to have the scope as close to the bore as possible but this has been working for a long time now so I'll keep it like it is.

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  #17  
Old 01-24-2011, 12:51 AM
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That looks like a fine setup, SS. Good shooting!
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  #18  
Old 01-24-2011, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Chief RID View Post
That looks like a fine setup, SS. Good shooting!
Thanks Chief, I remember last year went target shooting & plinking at a buddies farm when I uncased my rifle my buddies commented its only a Winchester I told them you'll change your mind after I shoot it. Well by the end of the day they started calling it 1 of 1000 (don't I wish it was a real 1 of 1000) I don't know when Winchester started going down hill on the quality on the 94's but they got this one right. Now my son wants a deer rifle so I need to find a good one for him it will be lever gun just don't know if it will be a Winnie or a Marlin price is going play a big part of it. When I got mine it was a pawn shop find for $165.00 16 years ago I don't think it had even been shot. Anybody know what the current prices at the pawn shops for .30-30's are?
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  #19  
Old 01-24-2011, 02:22 PM
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I mostly fit into the "You don't put scopes on lever actions" camp, but I have a 30-30 rifle with a heavy 24" octagon barrel on it that I have thought of putting a scope on, but it is not an AE modle so would have to mount it on the side, and I already have the mount, I think it would make a cool varmint rifle with the 100 and 110 grain hollow points, even if I would have to use it as a two shot, that is no problem when your shooting varmints.
Anyway I think it looks just fine, and it sounds like it shoots fine too.
But you realy need to buy your son a Winchester...IMO that is!
Terry
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  #20  
Old 01-24-2011, 02:47 PM
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Not trying to hi-jack the thread but don’t overlook the 125-grain Sierra and the 130-grain Speer bullet for varmints.

Our 26” Buffalo Bill will push the 125-grain Sierra flat nose JHP to 2,740 fps using 34.0 grains of Alliant Reloder 10X. This is a good load.

The same rifle using 37.0 grains of Hodgdon Varget will push the 130-grain Speer flat nose bullet 2,730 fps and I am sad to say I will never be able to shoot up to this loads potential.
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