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  #1  
Old 03-26-2011, 12:44 PM
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444 shot shells


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3/4 ounce of shot, and hoping that they will cycle through the action.............
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Old 03-26-2011, 06:00 PM
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What did you use for shot capsules? Is their a wad in thier? Ive been playing with some brass 410 shells. Im using Lil Gun, wad, #6 shot filled to top of shell with wax melted through out. Groups arent too bad, but id like to find something like Speers shot capsules. good work with your 444, looks like your making an all round weapon, from mild to wild. I like it.
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Old 03-27-2011, 03:42 AM
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Hey Matt! I do use the Speer capsules (44 cal), without the "cap". I put the powder charge in the case and top it off with a wad, then fill the case with shot. At 3/4 ounce there is a bit of shot left over...that goes in the capsule. Then I install the capsule in the case, "settle" the shot, and seat the capsule to my COL (2.700 for the Safari Grade 2.750 COL....this makes for a tighly compressed shot charge). A Lee Factory Crimp die crimps the capsule in place. The shot charge weight will be dictated by the COL for your rifle. I am going to try these out on Wednesday (weather permitting)....I will post a report.
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Old 03-27-2011, 08:15 AM
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Flat Top, what will you use 'em for?
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Old 03-27-2011, 09:48 AM
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T-man; I have been stuck in the woods and on the islands around here more than once...luckily just overnighters...but still stuck. This was normally due to flooding that cut off my return routes...violent storms, etc. Anyway, For years I have made a habit of carrying a few shotshells for my 44 mag revolver. I have bagged some small game with them, and once shot a copperhead. They are just nice to have along for vermin, snake, and small game as a "survival" tool and nothing more. When I built my first 444, the Peashooter, I had intended to make them, but now another 444 later, the Safari Grade, I have finally gotten around to it. I guess I just carry these for piece of mind more than anything...they DO work, its a fun project, and maybe some day they will come in handy.
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Old 03-27-2011, 06:26 PM
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Sounds pretty cool to me. What type of powder are you using? What sizes of shot have you tried? Take care buddy.
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  #7  
Old 03-28-2011, 12:52 AM
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I doubt they'll cycle thru the action. The Speer capsules are pretty fragile, especially after crimping them. I recently loaded some 357's for a friend and out of the box of 50, I ended up with about 40 good-uns. I've done the 44's too, but never tried em in any of my 44 rifles. 99% sure they'll be a "single shot only" type of deal with a 444. Really better off just loading reduced loads with cast round nosed bullets for small game. Or maybe try a two or three ball load with 43 caliber round balls over fast burning powder. I've done some tri-ball loads in 45-70's over IMR 4198. But these are single shot only deals too, they won't feed from the magazine without hanging up
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Old 03-28-2011, 06:06 AM
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Farrier Matt; 296 or H110 is a suggested powder for the 410 bore loads and I used some 296 that I had a bit of.....14.7 grains....velocity 1100 fps...pressure arround 14,000, with a 3/4 ounce (about 344 grains) load of shot. Because of the shape of the Speer Capsule they need to be loaded "short" of the COL of "your" rilfe. My SG 444 has a COL of 2.750 and I found that a COL of 2.700 will chamber and eject (without being fired). When I go to the range wednesday (weather permitting), I will see if they will load into the magazine, cycle through the action, and fire some patterns. I will report back. I have found that #9 shot with my 444 case, 44 mag shotshells in the 44 mag revolvers gives a good dense pattern. I have these, for the 444, loaded with #9, but, if this all works out with the rifle #71/2...maybe even #6 would be ideal for small game because of the larger volumn of shot. Only time will tell.

baddad 457; I used the Speer capsules many years ago when they first came out...in my 44 mags, and a "roll" crimp will definately weaken the plastic capsule. I learned later on that the Lee Factory Crimp Die will apply a nice secure crimp without harming the capsule. Even single shot is better than nothing at all....so we shall see what happens monday. I am more concerned with pattern density that with the shotshells ability to feed through the action, but, it would be nice if they did!!!! Will keep you all posted.
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Old 03-28-2011, 06:32 AM
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It will be interesting to see if they pattern better with one type of rifling or the other. Keep us posted.....
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  #10  
Old 03-28-2011, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
It will be interesting to see if they pattern better with one type of rifling or the other. Keep us posted.....
Will do...Starrbow brought that up on another forum. I would "think" that the 1-38 would lend itself to better patterns, but, who knows. The 1-20 in my Redhawks produce a very nice, unform pattern....one that I am happy with. My 444's are 1-20...we shall see. I got some info from an Aussie forum member who said that by melting hot wax into the shot charged case that patterns will tighen up considerably and increase usable distance of the pattern....I have never tried that though.
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  #11  
Old 03-28-2011, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flat Top View Post
Will do...Starrbow brought that up on another forum. I would "think" that the 1-38 would lend itself to better patterns, but, who knows. The 1-20 in my Redhawks produce a very nice, unform pattern....one that I am happy with. My 444's are 1-20...we shall see. I got some info from an Aussie forum member who said that by melting hot wax into the shot charged case that patterns will tighen up considerably and increase usable distance of the pattern....I have never tried that though.
The 1-20 imparts a different rpm to the bullet in a revolver because the bullet is moving slower than in a rifle length barrel, so the stability imparted to a bullet is going to be different. Not sure if that woiuld have any effect on a shot capsule, not that it would matter at the ranges involved.
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  #12  
Old 03-28-2011, 09:25 AM
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410 Ray

Hi Baddad,
I picked up a box of dies that did something called a 410 Ray. He used 30-40 brass trimmed to make shotshells for 44 Mag. revolvers. Over the weekend, I've been busy necking up 356BB cases for my 44 Marsh wildcat. I now have a pretty good selection of Hornady elliptical expanders. Interestingly, this approach shortens the cases more than my earlier cream of wheat case forming. But I noted that the .416 elliptical expander, leaves just enough of a shoulder, to facilitate chambering this case. Of course the 444 case is too short to do this in your rifle, but what about starting with full length 30-40's, like Mr. Ray did. With this .416 neck, and either a star crimped, or over shot wad crimped into a .416 case mouth, I believe you could do an extra long 410 Ray, and have an indestructable and pocket proof shot load that would chamber just like a loaded round, in the original 444M. You would, of course, have to adjust your O.A.L., to equal the factory 444M cartridges. I just don't know if you could also use 405 Win. brass as this parent. But if you could neck ream your extended case mouths down to 44WCF neck thicknesses, they should open up pretty slick. So, with either star crimps, in the brass, or wax sealed over shot wads, they should pack very nicely. I'll have to try this one myself later this summer, in my now 49.7mm long 44 Marshes. At least I can use the longer factory 444 Marlin cases with a touch up on their extraction grooves for the Win 94's top mounted extractor. At present it doesn't like the flanged Marlin case as opposed to the Win 356 BB which does still have the original 30WCF rim. Just as in the original 44 Lever Power, you still have to reduce those 30-40 Krag rims, down to 30WCF specs. I hope this 410 Ray angle helps a bit.
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Old 03-28-2011, 10:37 AM
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I too will be interested in how they pattern....if you don't mind backing up to about 25 yards
I've wanted a winchester 9410 for a while and was just recently wondering if 1. you could load 410 shells into a 444, or 2. how a 444 would pattern if I made some shotshells like you just did.
Can't wait....I don't have either guns right now, but if you can get a decent shot out of a 444, I'd probably buy that over the 9410 (or maybe both eventually).
I want one just for practicing...shooting skeet, what better way to get better at running deer than clay pigeons on the move.
good luck
C
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Old 03-28-2011, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carpooler View Post
Hi Baddad,
I picked up a box of dies that did something called a 410 Ray. He used 30-40 brass trimmed to make shotshells for 44 Mag. revolvers. Over the weekend, I've been busy necking up 356BB cases for my 44 Marsh wildcat. I now have a pretty good selection of Hornady elliptical expanders. Interestingly, this approach shortens the cases more than my earlier cream of wheat case forming. But I noted that the .416 elliptical expander, leaves just enough of a shoulder, to facilitate chambering this case. Of course the 444 case is too short to do this in your rifle, but what about starting with full length 30-40's, like Mr. Ray did. With this .416 neck, and either a star crimped, or over shot wad crimped into a .416 case mouth, I believe you could do an extra long 410 Ray, and have an indestructable and pocket proof shot load that would chamber just like a loaded round, in the original 444M. You would, of course, have to adjust your O.A.L., to equal the factory 444M cartridges. I just don't know if you could also use 405 Win. brass as this parent. But if you could neck ream your extended case mouths down to 44WCF neck thicknesses, they should open up pretty slick. So, with either star crimps, in the brass, or wax sealed over shot wads, they should pack very nicely. I'll have to try this one myself later this summer, in my now 49.7mm long 44 Marshes. At least I can use the longer factory 444 Marlin cases with a touch up on their extraction grooves for the Win 94's top mounted extractor. At present it doesn't like the flanged Marlin case as opposed to the Win 356 BB which does still have the original 30WCF rim. Just as in the original 44 Lever Power, you still have to reduce those 30-40 Krag rims, down to 30WCF specs. I hope this 410 Ray angle helps a bit.
My head's about to explode now.
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Old 03-28-2011, 01:10 PM
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There is probably a hundred ways to accomplish this....I dont think the patterns will be good past 15 ft or so....in the 444, but, I may be wrong. These are just nice to have along as a "survival tool", or for poppin' rats in the wood shed, or an occasional serpent that becomes offensive. I have shot squirrels and rabbits (and one snake) with these up close, and they do kill...but, you have to be close...feet, not yards!!!! We shall see how this all pans out...it may not be exciting...but as always, it will be interesting.
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Old 03-28-2011, 07:47 PM
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reply to Flat top

Hi there F.T.,
You might surprise yourself with these super 22 birdshot loads. I remember as a kid, blasting the oldie star crimped 22 shot cartridges into a pool of water in a creek, from a high bank. The dust shot in those old 22's stayed together for a good 25 feet. I believe if I had tossed a picnic plate into that creek, I'd have kept 90% of the dust shot on the paper. It splashed real nice, but I have no idea if the super fine shot would have even penetrated the soggy paper plates. So, you may run out of energy in dust shot, before you open your patterns up. Why not get back to this thread when you find the balance point between shot size and pattern loss? I think #4 shot would show wide open patterns before the energy of each pellet degraded to bouncing off of a large rodent or snake. Hunting with an old single shot .410 as a kid, showed me to always stick between #6 and #7&1/2 size shot. Even at that, knocking down a pheasant, usually only put 2 or 3 pieces of shot into something vital, like the ring neck's neck or head. I only used #9 for quail, a few times. But as always, a note for safety. One published gunwriter wrote that dust shot kills rattlesnakes much better than #9's. I think it was Jim Zumbo. The dust may be the ticket, as it can't carry too much energy back into your hide, if your troublesome rattler, is coming at you, up close and personal, over the top of a flat rock that bounces half of your load back at Ya! Ya gotta watch out for those flat ricochet prone rocks, Flat Top. A forty four caliber shot load of any pellet size is going to try and find a way to bite you, if fired into hard ground at close range. On the other hand, you can be like Buffalo Bill's Wild West show, in that you could shoot these all night long under the Big Top, without perforating the canvas roof. That was what the old 44XL's with the twisted paper shot capsules were designed to do. Bill Cody used a couple of presentation Win. 73's that were smooth bored for these little numbers.
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Old 03-29-2011, 04:07 AM
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Carpooler; I have shot these in handguns for 40 years, and not once have I ever been hit by a richochet....lucky, I guess. The 45 ACP shot shell that I made back in the day was loaded with birdshot, and would cycle semi-auto through the 45 ACP Colt....devistating. The 444 Marlin shotshell that I make for my 44 Mags is loaded with #9 and produces a nice full pattern, up close. To ten feet there is no snake that I know of that could avoid being nailed by this load (been there, done that, once), and, as I said before a few squirrel and rabbits have fallen to it as well. My hope is that the 444 will be able to shoot a bit larger shot, # 71/2 because of the 3/4 ounce loading for my rifle. If I can get a bit more distance with a full pattern and 7 1/2 shot, I would be very happy......# 6, and I would be beside myself!!! These test loads are loaded with #9's. This should give me an idea of what to expect with larger shot. I have always liked having a few of these along, and over the years they have shown some usefulness....if for nothing else than to break one down (much easier than trying to pull a bullet) and use the powder to start a fire on a wet day............Hopefully, weather permitting, I will get to check these out tommorrow and will have a full report.
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Old 03-29-2011, 11:10 AM
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Try the wax. Worked in my 410, both the shotgun and the Judge pistol.
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Old 03-29-2011, 11:57 AM
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Matt; I will give that a shot as well....wadda ya do, just pour hot wax into the cartridge when it is filled with shot, or, do you have to do it a bit at a time until the cartridge is full?
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Old 03-29-2011, 06:06 PM
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I load 1/4 or 1/3 of shot at a time, then melt wax, little more shot, little more wax, etc.
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