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  #1  
Old 09-21-2011, 12:05 PM
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problems at the range "sighting in"


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I am still a little new around the forum but this seems to be the place for sighting in a levergun. I just purchased a used lever gun to replace one I had let go years ago during hard times. Its a 1981 model 336 and looks to be in very good condition. Picked it up at a local gun shop for 3 bills with a swift scope that I have never heard of but seems good and clear. Now to the meat of the problem. I had the gun bore sighted when I bought it and then took it to the range on sat morning. I got their before daylight to get a good spot while it was cool and zero in the new rifle. Well I was doing well using winchester power points and remington core locks in 170 and 150 gr loads trying to see which one shot the best. I got the gun to withen 6in at 100yds then ran out of the win and rem rounds. I then changed over to leverevolution 160s all I had left to finish sighting in the gun. These were the rounds I had bought to hunt with and were saving for that purpose. I had started at 25yds then 50 then 75 and finally 100 making slight adjustments along the way and firing three round groups at each distance. To my suprise when I fired the first Hornady round I could not even hit the paper. The bad thing is my paper was 2ft wide by 3 ft tall. After firing 6 more rounds I decided I was blind and walked down range to see where I was hitting the paper. I was so confused I pulled my target and left the range. No holes in the paper. Does Hornaday rounds shoot that much different than all others ? Im getting ready to hit the range again with 6 boxes of 150gr win. power points which seem to be doing well in the levergun but would really love to know what the heck happened. I checked all the scope mounting screws and looked down the bore after cleaning again and all looks well. It dosent take long to shoot $100.00 bucks down range when you have these kinds of problems. Has anyone had this kind of experience with different rounds.

Last edited by scgunslinger; 09-22-2011 at 08:51 AM. Reason: Hornady gr weight
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  #2  
Old 09-21-2011, 12:47 PM
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Odd, and hard to say what is the culprit on the variation....
Levers can get squirrelly too, with holds, or how the gun is rested on a rest, or how hot the barrel is. Remember, there's a whole lot of wood resting on that barrel.
About bullet choices...Personally, I'd stick with the Remington Core-loct 170's. they'll kill just about anything the gun is capable of, and won't lose alot of bullet weight.

Do you reload? If so, try the Beartooth 160 grain hardcast. they will make a believer in cast bullets.
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  #3  
Old 09-21-2011, 02:54 PM
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I have a 336 that's newer than yours but notice differences in ammo. At 100 yds. Rem core lokts in 170 shoot the best. The core lokts in 150 always hit right about 2"-3". Federals are usually within 2" of center but never in the same spot(up, down, side). Never tried the soft points though. The tip about newspaper is a good one. I wonder if the older rifles have different rifling & twist than newer ones that the Leverevolution was designed for.
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Old 09-21-2011, 04:40 PM
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Hmmmmmmm.. You did not say how many of the other TWO loads you used to get the rifle within 6". If it was even close to one box of rounds, something is amiss, my friend. I've sighted in rifles with no more than 6 rounds, ending in a MOA group. Using 10-15-25 rounds and not getting results means something is wrong, bad wrong. I'd first suspect the scope. Unless you had GOOD groups, that needed to be reigned in, there is likely something wrong with that scope.

Best of luck getting it done!
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  #5  
Old 09-21-2011, 06:07 PM
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Yeah. You should be spending time at 25 yards, not 100, to figure out what is going on. Get it sighted in exactly on at 25 yards, then see what it does at 100. It might be off a little but you should be on paper, at least.

Does it have iron sights? It wouldn't hurt to try them too.
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  #6  
Old 09-21-2011, 06:53 PM
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+1 what MikeG says. You're wasting ammo shooting at 100 yds and changing types of ammo. Get back to 25 yds with dead center POI, then move out to 100.
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  #7  
Old 09-21-2011, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdub View Post
+1 what MikeG says. You're wasting ammo shooting at 100 yds and changing types of ammo. Get back to 25 yds with dead center POI, then move out to 100.
Maybe a stopover at 50 yards and another elevation adjustment before moving out to 100?
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  #8  
Old 09-22-2011, 01:58 AM
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First thing you did wrong was sighting in the gun with ammo you never intended to use hunting. Then you say you're going to do this again ? And expect the same results ? Sight it in with the ammo you're going to use hunting. Both the Winchester and Remington rounds are more than deadly enough to kill a deer.
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  #9  
Old 09-22-2011, 04:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scgunslinger View Post
Has anyone had this kind of experience with different rounds.
I hit the range this week to try a few different loads in several rifles. My .30-30, a 336 made in 1981 no less, prints 170gr Hornady FP's and 170gr Sierra FP's into 1 1/2" groups about 10" apart, 2' from 130gr FP's @ 100yds.

My 77/44 shoots 265gr Hornady FP's about a foot low and a foot left of 270gr Speer Deep Curls, 300gr Sierra FP's are at least 2' below the Hornady groups. The Hornady and Speer loads are same brass and primers, exactly the same charge of W296.

The Leverevolution stuff uses a different powder, and a unique bullet design, and I wouldn't be at all surprised at that change in POI.
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  #10  
Old 09-22-2011, 04:50 AM
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Yup. Seen it many times. Sometimes a rifle will print a bunch of different stuff together - sometimes not.
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  #11  
Old 09-22-2011, 08:49 AM
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the plan

My plan was to zero with the cheeper stuff then zero with the Hornady for hunting. I had no idea their would be that much difference in the POI at 100yds. I shot 3 rounds made an adjustment shot three to check then moved out 25 yds at a time. I had a 4" group at 75 when I moved out to 100 and shot a 6" group. I will be back at the range this weekend with plenty ammo and a new set of binoculars to save rounds and $$ I bought the win. power point 150s that seemed to shoot the tightest last go round. After I get it zerowed in with them the plan is to buy some different rounds and dial it in to the rounds that shoot the best groups. After much study on this forum I have learned to dial it in with one round then dont change. I can see how we miss deer now. We change bullets not good. My original plan was to find a good round for the range on the cheeper side then find a good hunting round that would shoot the same. I like what Hornady has to offer but if its that much different I will steer clear. If I cant find win. and have to change over to rem. I will be real close but if I sighted in with win. and could only find Hornady I would have no confidence in the hunt. After what I have learned I am going to sight in dial in and stock up. I hope its not the most expensive rounds. I have two 336s and hope they like the same food. My one year old 336 will eat 150 core locks or power points and not be over two inches off at 50yds. It looked like this gun was headed down the same road. I can only hope. Thank you guys that responded. I am going to check that scope again. That may be why I bought the gun for 3 bills. I have a new Tasco 1.5 x 4 and mounting rings that was bought for the new gun. It may find its way to the old gun.

Last edited by scgunslinger; 09-22-2011 at 08:59 AM.
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  #12  
Old 09-22-2011, 09:44 AM
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You can definitely save a little ammo in the process. Sight in EXACTLY at 25 yards. There is no need to fire groups at 50 or 75. Maybe one shot just to be sure.

If there's any doubt at 100, just use a bigger target Seriously, use a big silhouette target on the backer. There is no way you'd miss at 100 when sighted in at 25, unless there is something drastically wrong with the scope.

Good of you to test before heading afield. Nothing wrong with testing; just don't want to waste too much ammo if you can avoid it.
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  #13  
Old 09-22-2011, 10:02 AM
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One last consideration - are you using see-thru scope mounts?

High scope mounts are the devil to get the scope and bore to align at the same distances. The lower the mounts the better it is to get that alignment for just about all distances. Personally, I doubt if you would need both iron sights and a scope once you get accustomed to the scope.
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  #14  
Old 09-22-2011, 10:18 AM
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No high scope mounts never really liked those. I am hoping its the scope. I would really like to shoot the little missles. I would change the scope now but I really want to know what the heck happened so Im going back with win ammo and revolution and shoot at 25yds and see what happens using both. I think I wil take the scope and if things seem stupid I will change it and try again.
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  #15  
Old 09-27-2011, 07:25 PM
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Start at 25. Shoot one shot using solid rest like sandbags, LeadSled, etc. While you hold the rifle perfectly still with crosshairs on the bullseye (where you aimed for the first shot) have some one else gently crank the scope adjustments so that the crosshair "move" to the bullet hole of your first shot. All the while you hold the rifle still.

Shoot again at 25 with crosshairs on the bullseye. The shot should be right there or very close. Now do the same at 50 yards. With one or two shots at 25 and one or two at 50 you should be able to move to 100 yds. and shoot a three shot group that will be on paper and near the bull. Then adjust to desired point of impact using the scope dials to put in the clicks you need.

With a solid rest, a helper and targets at 25, 50 and 100 yards a scoped rifle can be brought into line in less than ten shots. That assumes decent scope, low mounts, properly set up and the same ammo throughout the process.

.30-30 LE ammo, in my experience, shoots 4" - 6" higher at 100 yards than traditional factory 170 grain ammo. Right now my .30-30 puts my 150 gr. handloads about 4" lower and 1" right of where the 140 gr. LEVERevolution Monoflex factory ammo hits.

Good luck with your process.
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Old 09-28-2011, 02:14 AM
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Originally Posted by scgunslinger View Post
No high scope mounts never really liked those. I am hoping its the scope. I would really like to shoot the little missles. I would change the scope now but I really want to know what the heck happened so Im going back with win ammo and revolution and shoot at 25yds and see what happens using both. I think I wil take the scope and if things seem stupid I will change it and try again.
I would do the same as your plans to go back and shoot a group of 3-5 rounds @ 25 yards & see what the results are. Also you might be correct concerning the scope. It might need to be "re-centered" or maybe it just plain defective. What brand is the scope and is it a variable type? If you are buying a new scope I'd suggest either a Redfield, Leupold, or Weaver. I wouldn't buy a Tasco as they are made in China. Hope you get your rifle issue resolved!
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  #17  
Old 09-28-2011, 03:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scgunslinger View Post
No high scope mounts never really liked those. I am hoping its the scope. I would really like to shoot the little missles. I would change the scope now but I really want to know what the heck happened so Im going back with win ammo and revolution and shoot at 25yds and see what happens using both. I think I wil take the scope and if things seem stupid I will change it and try again.
Using two different ammo's is part of the problem. Choose one and get sighted in for that. Switching back n' forth or using both on the same day is going to just complicate the issue. If you really want to use both, stick with one until you're dialed in at 100 and then go back to 25 and start over. Personally, if I was willing to cough up the $$ for the LE ammo, I would just stick with that throughout and forget about buying other stuff.

For the 30/30 and a lever-action rifle, just go with the ammo you get the best groups from and forget about buying anything else. It's not like you're going to wind up with a 500 yard tack-driver.
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  #18  
Old 10-18-2011, 10:02 AM
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update

Got back to the range with the 150gr win power points. Started where I left off and was back on the paper at 100yds 8in group.Dialed in a little tighter and got it to 4in group. Then the rain started coming down so hard I left it at that for now. That will get me through hunting season. I still have some of the LE ammo in 160gr and am very curious as to what it will do. The scope seems to be OK, it has swift brand name that I have never heard off and is a 3x9x40 that is very clear. I wish I had known Tasco was now made in China I would have never bought it. Guns is one thing I dont like to skimp on. I ordered it and mounting rings online so I guess I will try it on the wifes 336w and see how it does. Thanks for all the info and help. I will update again when I try the LE ammo.
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  #19  
Old 11-03-2011, 10:29 AM
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Range Update

Got back to the range again with 150 Win. PPs and noticed the scope had a little issue. After a 2" group at 25 yards and 6" at 100 I moved back to 25 to tighten up the group if possible and it shot 6" low off a rest at 25 and shot under the target at 50. The retical in the scope was moving in some manner and would shoot different each time I picked up the gun and put it back on the rest. I installed the new Tasco 1.5 x 4.5 x 32 and zeroed it right in. Got it to less than 1" at 25 then shot a 3" group at 100yds 3 times after letting the barrell cool a tad between groups. I ran thru all ranges again just to be sure the gun had no issues. Thank goodness it was just the scope and the only way I found it was to stand the gun up on the butt stock looking at the scope adjustments then laying it back on the rest. The only thing I can say about the Hornady LEs is it shoots about 5" higher than the win 150PPs Also the 150PPs shoot the same elavation from 25 to 100 yds in this gun. I tried a couple 170PPs and they are no more than 2" low at 100yds from dead on at 25yds This has been a first for me never had a scope do that before but a good lesson learned. I hope the China Tasco holds up. Next time it will be a bushnell. Thanks for all the replys. It reminds you of all the things to check for the process of elimination to work. The end results seems like LEs are in a class of their own and may shoot the best groups but dont shoot like anything else. The fact that you cant leave them in the gun long term is not setting well with me. Mine stays loaded and when I pick it up it needs to shoot POA. That wont work if I sight in with LEs and then load with anything else. I will have to pass although I will continue the quest of dialing in with different ammo to find the best groups. I wont complain with 3" at 100yds but would love 2"

Last edited by scgunslinger; 11-03-2011 at 10:32 AM.
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