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  #1  
Old 09-09-2004, 02:25 AM
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357 or 44 for lever carbine-ballistic curves?


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I can't actually get a levergun until I decide on caliber!!! For a carbine length, I need to work up some ballistics curves for various loads for each and compare them.

One of the advantages is that you can put your handgun ammo in them, but of course the ballistics will be better. Of course at 100 yards the 44 will have more drop than a 357, but I want to look at some curves and see how differently they behave and if the 44 drop is really significantly more.

I think that with about three or four loads, either caliber could make an all-purpose rifle.

So before I spend a lot of time re inventing the wheel, has anyone else already done comparisons of this nature? t
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  #2  
Old 09-09-2004, 05:18 AM
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Get any reloading manual with a decent ballistics table and start studying. You'll have to decide what bullets to compare, as that will influence velocity and downrange trajectory.

I think you'll find that the .357 and .44 mag (and throw the .41 mag in there as well) will produce very similar trajectories over that range, when you are comparing similar bullets (light, medium, and/or heavy-for caliber), loaded to max velocities. The .45 Colt will bring up the rear, by just a touch.

The choice of both barrel length and bullet weight will significantly affect muzzle velocity. Just too many variables for someone to state that one caliber will always have a better trajectory than another. The only think you can say for sure is that when caliber goes up, bullet weight and recoil will also go up.

If you don't have a reloading manual, pick a common bullet and I'll see if I can swag some numbers.
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  #3  
Old 09-09-2004, 02:39 PM
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I agree with MikeG about including the .41 mag. Some day I hope to recover some of my losses that have occured over the past 18 months, financially speaking, and get another Smith in .41, and then see if any Marlin's are available. I love all these calibers, but my .44 mag. revolver doesn't lend itself to long shooting sessions, and .44 specials are expensive if you don't reload or buy reloads. My first duty weapon was a Smith 586 4in., and I would still not hesitate to get another if I had the means. .38 specials, even +P loads were easy to shoot all day long, and full power loads are plentiful. But the .41 mag seemed a perfect balance between the two, and heavy loads out of a revolver didn't bother me much, in fact less than really hot .357's. Give the .41 a hard look, I think you might like that combination. If you need the power, then the .44 is the way to go, but the 180 grain, .357 bullets are a great rifle/pistol load that will take most game within limits and good shot placement. I hunt with my .44 as well as .45 Colt chambered Marlin 1894's, so a critter doesn't know what kills it.
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Old 09-09-2004, 05:04 PM
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I've had both the .44 and the .357 in carbines sold both but currently own a .357 in a 94CB with 24" bbl. I shoot some very stout loads in it using 2400 and 158gn XTP. The deer I have shot with it and my .44 mag lever gun are just as dead. I'll give the .44 it's due as far as being a all around gun. I'd give it a thumbs up especially if you run into something that may hunt you. The .357 has the versitility of being small game, varmit to big game to tin can plinker. Will it do it better, no will it do it cheaper yes. The .357 is more of a pleasure for me to shoot, hand it to a younger shooter to shoot a few with, makes a great starter rifle for the beginning shooter, a great all around gun for the expierienced rifle man. Swany
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  #5  
Old 09-10-2004, 01:51 PM
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Swany's advice is right on the money- shooting .38's all day long is cheap and easy on you as well. As for rifle loads (.357), I prefer the 180 grain bullets because there's more surface area for the rifling to stabilize, and more downrange energy. This is not to say the 158 grainers won't do the trick, it's just my preference and observation that some .357 rifle's like the heavier bullets. I've never seen one that would shoot the 110-125 gr. bullets inside of a ten foot radius at 50 yards, but that may have changed with the newer models.
Happy shooting!
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  #6  
Old 09-11-2004, 05:11 AM
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Lightbulb

I have both the .357 and .44 1894's. I really like my .357 carbine for hunting and general shooting. I have used my .357 carbines for anything from small game to medium sized deer with great success. Most of my shots range less than 75yds though. Here are two graphs illustrating the very little differences in trajectory you'll find interesting. Here's the specs:

Both rifles sighted in at 100yds:
(Open Sights: .72" above center line)

.357 Mag
1894CP 16.25" bbl
158gr Hornady XTP-FP @ 1800fps

.44 Mag
1894 20"bbl
240gr Hornady XTP-HP @ 1750fps





Energy Comparison in Rifles:



Data comes from Speer's PCBullet program..
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Last edited by Carwi; 09-14-2004 at 05:12 PM.
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  #7  
Old 09-11-2004, 11:26 PM
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Carwi- thanks, thats the sort of thing I was looking for. I've got powder manuf manuals, but sometimes the bullet choices are somewhat generic and I don't have the BCs to plug in.

What does that +/-3" PBZ look like with a 16" 30-30, just to compare range with a rifle round?

How much does the 44 lose if its also in a 16" barrel? How much more powder does the 44 eat?

I'll have to toss the energy figures into the felt recoil calculator once I look up the weight of the guns...

The .357 does look more practical for most purposes; cheaper to lose the brass, less powder. But .44 just seems like the "right" caliber for a levergun.u
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  #8  
Old 09-12-2004, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InTheBlack
Carwi- thanks, thats the sort of thing I was looking for. I've got powder manuf manuals, but sometimes the bullet choices are somewhat generic and I don't have the BCs to plug in.

What does that +/-3" PBZ look like with a 16" 30-30, just to compare range with a rifle round?

How much does the 44 lose if its also in a 16" barrel? How much more powder does the 44 eat?

I'll have to toss the energy figures into the felt recoil calculator once I look up the weight of the guns...

The .357 does look more practical for most purposes; cheaper to lose the brass, less powder. But .44 just seems like the "right" caliber for a levergun.u
InTheBlack,

I'm not totally sure on the velocities obtainable from a 16" bbl from both the 30/30 and the .44 Mag, but this should give you an idea anyway. I have lowered the velocities to approximate what I think you would get with factory rounds. If you handload you can definitely step up on the .44. I have clocked the 240gr Hornady XTP at close to 1900fps with a max loading of H110. I hope this chart helps.




Legend:

3030win: 30/30 Winchester 170gr Hornady FP @ 2075fps (16"bbl)
357MGXTP: .357 Magnum 158gr XTP-FP @ 1800fps
44Mag16: 44 Magnum 240gr XTP-HP @ 1680fps (16"bbl)
44MGXTP: 44 Magnum 240gr XTP-HP @ 1750fps (20"bbl)

I personally know that the ballistics for the .44 and .357 can be improved upon handloading. I have a loading for a Speer 158gr JSP "Unicore" using Lil'Gun that tops 1900fps in my 1894CP without excessive pressure!
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Last edited by Carwi; 09-14-2004 at 05:14 PM.
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  #9  
Old 09-27-2004, 08:17 AM
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I use the Winchester 1894AE in 45 Long Colt. The cowboy action stuff in 200 and 250 grains sucks, but the PMC factory load in 320 grains is another story. Works fine in both pistol and rifle. Quite accurate out to 100 yds. I don't know how the 45LC compares to the 44mag or 357mag, but the 45LC can be loaded to near 44 mag specs. In factory ammo though, most of the readily available ammo is quite limited, and the 44 mag is a better choice.
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  #10  
Old 09-27-2004, 12:06 PM
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Maybe that is the reason I quickly soured on the Winchester Trapper I bought for CAS? The .45 cowboy loads were okay accuracy wise, but then again the ranges of the targets were no more than 45 yards away for regular matches. I used handloaded XTP's for hunting (once), the 250 gr. I think, and that was an exercise in futility. Possibly, if I had known, it would have made a good huting rifle with the heavier loads with the increased bearing surface, but since it held only 9 rounds I was severely handi-capped shooting CAS which 98% of the time required 10 pistol shots per stage. One point of observation, is that the .45 can be handloaded to higher velocities than the .44 mag every time. True, the factory offering are limited and anemic, but premium ammo makers bear this out with heavier loads in .45 LC which deliver more energy than the same companies hot loaded .44 mag. Please don't consider this advice to go out and cram the heaviest bullet into a .45 case over a tightly compressed powder charge; just because something can be done doesn't mean all can do it. I'm simply saying that the .45's larger diameter, however slight it is, gives the powder charge more surface to push on and gives slightly lower pressure. Today's .45 LC brass is a far cry from that of even 20 years ago in terms of quality and thickness.
My .02, your experience may differ. So, let's hear what you guys have to say about this. Have you seen the same?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RugerCal480
I use the Winchester 1894AE in 45 Long Colt. The cowboy action stuff in 200 and 250 grains sucks, but the PMC factory load in 320 grains is another story. Works fine in both pistol and rifle. Quite accurate out to 100 yds. I don't know how the 45LC compares to the 44mag or 357mag, but the 45LC can be loaded to near 44 mag specs. In factory ammo though, most of the readily available ammo is quite limited, and the 44 mag is a better choice.
PS-Buffalo Bore has now gotten .357 loads going faster than 30-30 rounds, which is quite astonishing. If you don't reload but do need the extra power, give them a look.
18.5 inch Marlin 1894
a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast = 1851 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1860 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Gold Dot = 2153 fps---- Can you believe this?!!!
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Gold Dot = 2298 fps---- Or this?!!!


Last edited by SFT; 09-28-2004 at 07:12 PM.
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  #11  
Old 06-13-2010, 02:02 PM
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I have marlin 1894cb and planning to reload 158gr hornady hp xtp with 16.7 gr of h110 powder. Do i need a magnum small pistol primer or regular small pistol primer will be good?
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  #12  
Old 06-13-2010, 03:55 PM
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Magnum, or Winchester small pistol. The regular Winchester small pistol primers have a pretty good spark.
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  #13  
Old 07-07-2010, 01:10 PM
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I have both Marlin 1894's. I have a 1894css .357 mag and a 1894 in .44 mag. If I'm
going to be hunting an area where the shots are 100 yds or less I take the .357 loaded
with Doubletap 180gr hardcast, gascheck bullets. Occasionally, I will take the 1894 .44
mag loaded with 240grn Speer Gold Dots. Both guns will do the job when shot placement
is right.
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  #14  
Old 07-10-2010, 10:21 PM
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I have a 94 in 44 mag, I have shot many a 44 special out of it with great accuracy. You are not limited to mag loads either.
My father in law has the same trapper in 45lc, he has a matching blackhawk with it.
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  #15  
Old 07-11-2010, 04:42 AM
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A .357 Magnum rifle will be slightly more accurate than a .44 Magnum. HOWEVER the .44 Magnum would be a better killer on Deer sized game. My vote goes to the .44 Magnum with it's 240 grain bullet. The recoil level of the .44 Magnum is slightly more than a .30-30 and about like a light single barreled 20 gauge shotgun
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  #16  
Old 07-11-2010, 07:48 AM
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Personally I wouldn't concern myself with the trajectory of a pistol caliber rifle at all. They are all close enough where its not a concern. What will limit your range will be your factory sights, most of them are terrible. They will limit you to 100yds perhaps even 75yds. Plan to spend money on a nice tang or reciever sight(or low-powered scope) if you want to squeeze some range out of a pistol-caliber carbine. The right sight can turn it from a 75yd shooter into a 150yd shooter, at least it did for me. Dave
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  #17  
Old 07-11-2010, 11:14 AM
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I would love to have a Winchester 94 in 44Mag. As of now I have one in a 45LC and one in 357Mag. Love to shoot both of them just the same. The company I used to work for bought me a Winchester 1892 in 44-40. I have had it for three years now and would love to shoot it but chances are it will stay unfired like the John Wayne Ruger 44-40 I bought to put next to it. One of my favorite Winchester lever guns is my Chief Crazy Horse 38-55.
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  #18  
Old 02-10-2011, 01:38 PM
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Several posters have have stated an accuracy difference between the .44 Mag and the .357 cartriges. The difference in any round is minimal if all other factors are the same. Most often a crtridge gets a reputaion for accuracy based more on the guns chambered for it than anything else. The quality of the chamber and barrel will make more difference than the cartrige used. Many older rounds that were once considered inaccurate compared to other rounds were often available most often in lever action or rifles not really designed for great accuracy. Both .357 and .44 Mag will show very close and excellent accuracy if fired from a Thompson contender or well designed bolt rifle or break action rifle. Lever rifles often have much looser chambers than bolt guns and are more designed for brush guns with iron sights and short ranges. Newer, high quality lever guns and ammunition are now much better made and much more accuate than lever guns 30 year ago.
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  #19  
Old 02-18-2011, 08:38 AM
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I would rather have a 44 magnum. JMHO
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  #20  
Old 02-18-2011, 01:21 PM
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Either calliber will do the same job out to 100 yds if deer or black bear is the biggest game. The .44 hits much harder but the 150 gr .357 is more than enough bullet for deer out to 150 yrds or black bears over bait. Trajectories are very close. Recoil is much more stout for the .44. Accuracy for both is about the quality of the rifle, not the cartrige. Both are capable of excellent accuracy if used in a well built scoped rifle. The .357 is much cheaper to shoot and .38 ammo is even cheaper for varmints or target practice. It is simply a matter of personal prefference as long as deer or close up black bear is the biggest game. I would go with the .357 because I personally like the .357 and find it more comfortable for extended shooting sessions. For larger game or longer ranges beyond 150 yrds, I go to a bottle neck cartridge. Just my prefference. The .44 is also a fine cartridge capable of bigger game at the same ranges but with more recoil and muzzel blast and a bit more expensive to shoot. My ammo choice for either would be a hard cast, small flat nose bullet from an LBT or similiar mold.

Last edited by firebird; 02-18-2011 at 04:55 PM. Reason: Mistake.
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