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  #1  
Old 01-01-2009, 11:52 AM
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CVA Buckhorn safe to shoot?


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I recently bought a CVA Buckhorn and then read this:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/unsafe_muzzleloaders.htm

I'm afraid to shoot it now. Should I be?
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  #2  
Old 01-01-2009, 02:03 PM
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I own one and so does my son. We only use 100 gr, of pyrodex. More is a waste of pellets. Would they sell a defective product in todays tv lawyers world. I'm on about 5 different shooting forums and have not heard of any problems with them. Wonder how much he got from T-Center to say that?????? Haooy New Year to ya
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  #3  
Old 01-01-2009, 03:14 PM
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The short answer is to stick to the factory recommendations and don't worry about it. Like jadek said, more than 100 grains of powder in that caliber of rifle is pretty much a waste. I only shoot 80 grains in my .50 caliber. More powder may just make the gun inaccurate. A lot of people fall for the "More Power" mantra, but accuracy is what really counts and the amount of powder can have drastic effects on accuracy.
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  #4  
Old 01-01-2009, 04:42 PM
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As I tell people that ask me about CVA rifles.. if this warning of barrel pressure concerns you (which is up to you) sell the rifle and get a Thompson Center or Knight. The barrel pressure rating on the barrel, is the minimum rating the barrel must handle before it can be shipped out of Spain. No one is saying that is the maximum pressure the barrel can handle. The problem Mr. Wakeman and others have is, CVA refuses to test rifles to a higher standard that they will admit to. Granted if they felt the rifles were dangerous, there is no way they would be sold in the United States. The CVA Apollo breech plug was dangerous many years back. It put CVA into bankruptcy. BPI bought CVA and restructured the company and they were back in business after they fixed their Apollo problem.

I bought a CVA Staghorn Magnum many years ago. The gun was made in 2003 according to the serial number. I would hate to guess the number of rounds I put through the barrel. And yes, I shot magnum charges. But the rifle likes 90 grains of Pyrodex Rs and a 300 grain or under sabot. Its got excellent accuracy.

As said, read your manual and understand it. Follow the recommendations of the manufacturer for load limits. If you do, can I guarantee your safe? Nope sorry I can't. I could not and would not if you owned a Thompson Center or Knight. No matter what we shoot there is always that chance of something happening.. no matter how slim. Would I feel safe shooting it? Yes I would. If you believe what you read about the dangerous muzzleloader, sell the Buckhorn. Your probably selling a very good, accurate, fun to shoot rifle.

Otherwise, load 90 grains of Pyrodex RS and a 250 grain shockwave and a primer on the back and have some fun. Tell me how it shoots.
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  #5  
Old 01-01-2009, 04:46 PM
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You know lots of folks are shooting CVA products out there, but how about asking them. Bet they would be glad to address any of your concerns. I've had two or three different CVA guns and there's one old swing hammer one sitting in the safe now that I have no qualms about shooting.
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  #6  
Old 01-02-2009, 05:43 AM
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Without making any bones about it, I do NOT like CVA & Traditions products because from an overall standpoint they are JUNK - by that comment I mean they have quality and design issues with most every part of them - some safety issues but mostly functionality & reliability issues. However, in all fairness, the statements and claims made by Randy Wakeman and the others who parrot these statements and claims are doing so purely to drive their chosen agenda and not to present "facts" in the interest of consumers.
I've made my statements loud and clear, in case you missed them, I have seen a number of safety & functionality issues with guns from the above two named companies - as they relate to SIDELOCKS only, the problems are with poor quality control and lack of craftsmanship. Lock & trigger failures and/or malfunctions resulting in inadvertent discharges (firing when they are not supposed to); lack of sufficient & reliable ignition and so forth. In all fairness, I have detailed the same lack of quality and craftsmanship issues with many Pedersoli muzzleloaders as well. To continue the fairness issue, I've also seen numerous part failures on Thompson Center sidelocks such as broken sears, galled tumblers and broken sear springs.
First and foremost, NO MECHANICAL OR ELECTRICAL DEVICE IS FOOLPROOF!!!! This is why we continuously stress the absolute need for anyone handling a gun at any time for any reason know and follow all the common firearms handling and operation safety measures AT ALL TIMES! I don't care if you buy a $150 CVA or Traditions, a $650 T/C, a $50,000 custom gun or a $530,000,000 bucket-wheel mining machine, any part at any time can fail without warning and improper operation will at some point injure/kill you or someone! I manufacture muzzleloaders, industrial machinery and associated items. I go to great lengths to test and/or specify every part/material used in the manufacturing process meets or exceeds the nominal operational and safety specifications ... but ... that does not mean something can't fail - thus is the reason why electrical circuits are protected by circuit breakers or fuses, it's an insurance policy to help prevent the possibility of catastrophic failure but it by no means can assure absolute protection. All that being said, when any item, including guns, are "built to a price" meaning they are manufactured in the cheapest possible manner so as to sell for the lowest possible price, the only way to achieve this goal is to reduced the manufacturing costs and that is done by reducing the costs of both labor and materials. When you reduce the cost of labor and materials, the result is reducing the level of quality.
Back to the basis of the issue at hand - First off, the "700Kp/cm2" is NOT a "proof mark" of any kind. A quick internet search will bring you numerous documents containing the past and present "proof marks" being used by the proofhouse in Eibar Spain and the above is nowhere to be found because it isn't a "proof mark". Without being able to contact the Eibar proofhouse personally, I have to settle for the word of a gentleman I have no reason to doubt that the "700kp/cm2" stamp is nothing more than an indication the steel meets the minimum acceptable standards - what we here in the USA would know as an ANSI, AWS, SAE, ect. specification - it does not mean the finished product was tested by either organization, it simply means the particular raw material in question was manufactured to meet the minimum acceptable standard corresponding to its identification mark. Example of this is ER70S6 welding wire. Because the number appears on the product does not mean it was tested by AWS or anyone else, it means that wire was manufactured in such a manner as to meet or exceed the minimum requirements for specification of that identifying number. Thus, the "70" portion of that identification number means that a weld bead laid down with that wire must achieve a minimum strength of 70,000psi - that does not mean the weld made will be a 70ksi joint, it means the composition of the wire must produce a minimum of 70ksi and in most cases the actual wire will test well above the 70ksi MINIMUM requirement. The same goes for the 700kp/cm2 marking, it means that steel meets or exceeds the minimum requirement for it to be labeled as such. If one takes the time to look, you can find other Spanish made centerfire guns wearing the same 700kp/cm2 marking in addition to the "actual" proof marks.
Going one step further, just because a particular gun/barrel has a "proof mark" it simply means that it didn't blow-up when it proofed and that doesn't mean it can't blow-up with the next round fired or the 1,000th round fired or the 10,000th round fired. A proof mark does not mean it won't or can't fail especially if it's operated/loaded improperly, it simply means that at the time it was tested it didn't fail. Proof marks are in reality worth about as much as an ISO rating - just because a company has an ISO 2xxx rating does not mean the product(s) they manufacture/sell are any good, it simply means that company has maintained their records properly. If you want to get down to brass tacks, firing an overpressure proof load can actually cause damage resulting in catastrophic failure at a later point in time with a standard pressure load.
A long time ago, I think in the 70's, maybe early 80's? Someone, think it was one of the gun rags did a series of destructive tests on the cheap mass-production ML's, I know CVA was one of them. At some point the stock broke but the barrel held and was strapped to a plank or some such fixturing jig and they continued upping the loads to further levels of insanity. This besides the point, I have seen several good-quality USA made ML barrels that have in fact suffered catastrophic failures but every single one was caused by either a improper operation or because the structural integrity of the barrel was compromised by a modification made after the barrel was shipped from the manufacturer thus making the failure caused by stupidity rather than a manufacturing or material safety issue. By far, the majority of catastrophic failures were the direct result of incorrect/unsafe loading.
If we really want to question proof marks and countries of origin, how about being truthful about where most barrels and other parts come from that are used on the alleged "made in USA" mass-production guns for use with both black powder and smokeless powder. Can you say?... Pakistan, India, China and Turkey to name just a few.
Another thing, how many of our domestic gun parts like barrels & actions are being made on machinery and with tooling that comes from foreign lands like China, Korea, Japan & Taiwan? What about the guns that are made in the Czech Republic, Romania, Germany, Georgia and so forth? Can we condemn Benelli and other high-quality Italian gun makers simply because Pedersoli produces a good amount of junk? Can we condemn all the American electrical equipment manufacturers simply because Federal-Pacific produces junk? Obviously the answer is "no" to all of these questions yet if we choose to accept the agenda-driven hype of a few people who have a vested financial interest in pushing that agenda, then we are simply being ignorant to the facts and making no progress than that which can be had from repeatedly hitting ourselves in the head with a hammer.
Summing all this up - First and foremost is SAFETY, SAFETY, SAFETY! Know everything about the gun! Pay attention to what you're doing! Don't allow yourself to be distracted when loading! When in doubt, throw it out! - Pull the load rather than taking a chance on firing it! If you don't know what you're doing, don't do anything, get professional help! If there is any question as to the maximum allowable load/bullet you can use in that particular gun is, contact the manufacturer BEFORE trying anything and then verify the information is correct! Common sense goes a long way!
If you buy guns built to a low price, barring the few very rare exceptions, normally you get cheap junk. If you buy a mass-production gun being sold at any price, do some homework and find out where all the raw materials come from and where all the parts are made before handing over your money. If you're buying a custom/semi-custom/handmade gun at any price, do your homework and find out where all the materials and parts come from. No matter what you choose to buy, get the facts, not agenda-driven hype!
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  #7  
Old 04-07-2009, 12:45 AM
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There are issues; it makes good sense that any consumer does his own research and forms his own conclusions.

http://cvaguncases.com/ is one place to start.


--Randy
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  #8  
Old 04-09-2009, 06:53 AM
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In all honesty, I could care less if CVA sells another gun or not but what I do care about is the outright malicious slander being perpetrated by certain individuals seeking nothing more than personal monetary gain.

Secondly I care more about the damage these same individuals will perpetrate upon the shooting community as a whole. Certain individuals seeking to pursue a particular political agenda are already attempting to impose liability regulations that will completely destroy the entire gun industry by bankrupting any shooting related manufacturer with unobtainable liability mandates - the attacks from within our own community serve to further the political agenda of those who do not share our liberties and interests in gun ownership and shooting. This is not an issue about one particular product or company, this is an issue that will affect everyone no matter if you are a consumer, retail seller or manufacturer - unfortunately those who seek the short-term monetary gains refuse to see the long-term damage they are doing to the entire shooting community.
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  #9  
Old 04-08-2015, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markkw View Post
In all honesty, I could care less if CVA sells another gun or not but what I do care about is the outright malicious slander being perpetrated by certain individuals seeking nothing more than personal monetary gain.

Secondly I care more about the damage these same individuals will perpetrate upon the shooting community as a whole. Certain individuals seeking to pursue a particular political agenda are already attempting to impose liability regulations that will completely destroy the entire gun industry by bankrupting any shooting related manufacturer with unobtainable liability mandates - the attacks from within our own community serve to further the political agenda of those who do not share our liberties and interests in gun ownership and shooting. This is not an issue about one particular product or company, this is an issue that will affect everyone no matter if you are a consumer, retail seller or manufacturer - unfortunately those who seek the short-term monetary gains refuse to see the long-term damage they are doing to the entire shooting community.
YES!! well said. It does do well to say that thankfully there is no governing body on black powder weapons in the USA the way SAMMI is regulation in regards to nitro rounds and bolts,barrels,etc, but I have seen over and over a regulatory process that works for about everything:you get what you pay for. As this gentleman said, nothing is exempt from failing if used improperly, but if a person is concerned about a 100$ CVA or T/C etc blowing up, pay 3-5000$ and get yourself a custom muzzleloader built with a 4140 steel barrel that was hand made right here in the USA at a shop you can call and talk to, and then talk to your builder about every part that goes into it. If you want big loads, get yourself an 8 bore built like I did, that will handle 400 grains of powder or and a 1500 grain conical no problem, for as long as you care to bust that load off. It will even use the right kind of smokeless with ease if you KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING because it cost thousands of dollars and that was in the DESIGN CRITERIA. But be that as it may, if you dont seat the bullet properly, or if you misload or overload it, it can split just like a 100$ CVA that was misloaded. I understand CVA had a bad run of failures with the specific Apollo rifles and trying to make things too cheap,but the company doesnt change names like Vulcan/Hesse/etc., and who knows if TC has had failures too? Who knows WHY those CVAs failed. Of course nobody is going to say they loaded it wrong and its their fault it blew up because then they won't get the money and they feel like their 150$ gun should never blow up no matter what you do to it. The fact that there is no regulatory agency on blk powder guns here should further the cause of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY AND SAFETY!!! To add some of my own personal experience to this post, I will say I have a Navy Arms boxlock .58 caliber that will take 200 grains of powder and a heavy minies and hit right on the money, although I find 110 grain charges does just as good with the same bullet. I have a Trail Guns pedersoli Kodiak SxS .50 that says in the papers that came with the box,from 1976,to use 150 grains of powder and a 500 grain "minie"..but doesnt use the word magnum anywhere. And I am almost prepared to trade it for a CVA buckhorn magnum because I dont even think both barrels were ever meant to hit anywhere close to each other.
I also have a Husqvarna 2.5" 12gauge under lever blk powder shotgun that was made in 1890 and that I use 730 grain minies with 120 grains of BH209 for close hog/bear work, and that load produces more pressure than a modern 12 gauge factory 2.75" slug. Look at the barrel thickness of of a shotgun.Although the larger bore decreases pressure exponentially, its miniscule compared to the barrel of a CVA .50. So my answer to the original question would be yes, in my non expert opinion, your CVA rifle, if it is in good working order, is safe to shoot as it is labelled to be shot.Unless there is a flaw at the plant that causes a weakness in the gun. And in all reality I would want to load heavier than 300 grain bullets with such a fast twist, ,just not in a 150$ gun.but thats just me. And I think you'll find that using your mainstream 300 grain and under sabots, 150 grain charges will not produce the accuracy that 80-90 grain charges will. And if you can't hit the animal, it doesnt matter how much powder you put in it. I would shoot it all day.

Last edited by blkpowder50; 04-08-2015 at 07:44 AM.
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  #10  
Old 04-08-2015, 08:33 AM
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Wakeman is a troll guys. Wakeman himself used to test and review CVA muzzleloaders until he went over to savage when they were hot on the market. One of the family members of savage was injured by a recalled CVA and so Wakeman turned it into a personal thing to rip CVA and anything they make, including powerbelt bullets.

CVA had a recall on inlines made in the years 1995-1996 and this is the only recall they ever had. I am sure the car you drive right now has some sort of recall on it now for a safety issue. Every product out there does.

I personally in one year put well over 5,000 rounds through 3 CVA muzzleloaders a few years back and I have never once had a safety issue PERIOD. I've been shooting CVA brand for 15 years now with no ill set backs or issues.

Savage, Remington,Colt, Thompson Center, they've all had guns that went boom.

Muzzleloaders are a pipe bomb when the uneducated pick them up and load up smokeless powder or keep shooting and reloading on a horribly fouled bore which turned into an unseated projectile stuck on top of a crud ring.

The main issue for Wakeman..... If you knew these rifles were so "unsafe".... Why.... do YOU... still offer reviews on your personal website from the days when you were shooting and testing them?

Traditions from my understanding hasn't had these problems and has never issued any sort of recall. Sure, in the old days their quality of fit and finish was pretty darn poor. Today, their center fire barrels are made in the USA by Wilson. Their muzzleloader barrels are made in Ardessa Spain and from the last 2 I have owned, including the Strikerfire, they've made a huge jump in quality over the last few years.
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  #11  
Old 04-08-2015, 05:13 PM
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Wakeman's been busy lately working as a magician in Chicago. Must mean slow times for Randy's Muzzleloader Enterprises these days.
I view Randy more-of a Eden snake than a troll. Cannot be trusted, for his mouth and product reviews follows the money trail to his door.

If you feel unsafe or edgy when firing that Buchorn, just sell the gun for piece-of-mind and buy something else. Sales start in Michigan during September and run thru December.
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Last edited by Triple Se7en; 04-08-2015 at 05:17 PM.
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  #12  
Old 04-19-2015, 10:58 AM
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Randy Wakeman is in the pockets of a Tulsa, OK personal injury attorney. i met a man who was present at the firing range where a muzzleloader newbie blew up his CVA gun using a large charge of smokeless powder: The shooter was badly injured. That guy is now a client of that Tulsa lawyer.

CVA sells more muzzleloaders in the US than all other makers combined. It ain't because those guns blow up.
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