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Black Powder Substitutes and Users Deserve Respect

13K views 42 replies 17 participants last post by  alsask 
#1 ·
Black Powder Substitutes and Shooters Deserve Respect Also

First I want to say thanks to the Black Powder shooters. Without them I doubt those of us that enjoy the Black Powder Substitutes would be having our fun. I have tremendous respect for black powder shooters. They will maintain the traditional form of shooting black powder firearms as our forefathers did while having to endure the smoke and smell along with the awful clean up during and after all shooting sessions. I would hope the black powder shooters could show some respect for those of us that find a place in our black powder firearm shooting for the use of substitute powders. The use of the substitute powder does have its place for many shooters in a number of black powder firearms. It is determined by the shooters needs and desires and can serve the shooter well.

I see the major advantage of the Black Powder Substitutes as being long extended shooting sessions with my Ruger Old Army’s without having to stop and perform a messy cleaning every 25 rounds to keep the gun operating. I don’t have to be concerned about having to clean the gun as soon as I return home. My firearms are kept in a room with a dehumidifier that maintains relative humidity below 50% and rusting is not a problem. I clean at my convenience.

I feel there is a place for the Black Powder Substitutes. After shooting Black powder, I prefer the substitutes for use in my Ruger Old Army. They don’t measure up well to black powder in rifles and I admit that. I don’t miss the stink of Black Powder. I don’t miss the many breaks in a shooting session for the frequent clean up required of the revolver to prevent the gun from freezing up due to black powder fouling. I don’t miss the smelly clean up in the kitchen sink with my wife telling me never again. I do enjoy the long shooting sessions with little more than about every 20 to 25 rounds I run a damp patch down the bore. I do enjoy not having the bore so crudded up that accuracy goes away in just a few cylinders being fired. I do enjoy not having to rush home to clean my cap & ball revolver or lose it to rust. The next morning or the next day is fine and if you live in a dry climate perhaps next month or not until the next time it is used. If you live in a humid climate, clean it soon after shooting. This where I do disagree with the advertisements suggesting no clean up required after shooting their substitute powder. No sulfur no salts to cause rust. Your conditions may suggest otherwise. Powder residue that attracts water left in or on a steel gun is not a good combination.

I find the attacks on the Black Powder Substitutes and those that choose to use them, totally undeserved. Even many of the respected gun writers bash the Black Powder Substitutes. They are especially critical of the substitutes that clean up with just water. Isn’t water a main item in cleaning a black powder gun? It always was when I cleaned my black powder rifles. They always go on to say the substitute powders that clean up with just water, attract water like a sponge rendering the powder useless in a short period of time. These critics also like to talk about the water attracting nature of the fouling left from shooting a Black Powder Substitute causing guns to rust like crazy due to the moisture attracted by the powder fouling. Hog wash with proper care.

So, can anyone tell me why normal gun care, perhaps the same as if you had fired real Black Powder, is not in order. What ever happened to the saying, “Keep your powder dry.” Proper storage and the use of proper sealed containers prevents any powder from being affected by moisture in the air. Proper and timely cleaning of Black Powder firearms, even when a substitute powder is used, prevents all the problems the critics of Black Powder Substitutes suggest. Maybe what is really missing in the use of Black Powder or the Substitutes is common sense. Use whatever powder pleases you and use some common sense after your shooting session and you can avoid all the problems either powder can create.

I store all of my powders in the original containers. I place my frequently used containers in air tight ammo cans and my longer storage powder will have a desiccant bag added to the ammo can. Years of storage in this manner has shown no change in the nature of any of my powders.

I will admit the ballistics provided by most Black Powder Substitutes is not up to the level of good black powder. That isn’t necessarily all bad. In the case of my Ruger Old Army’s, I have two, and my shooting buddy has one, all three will shoot one ragged hole, ten shot groups at 50’ with 20 to 25 grains of American Pioneer. I don’t care how fast those round balls are going or not going when I am punching holes in paper, but I do care that they are not only all on the paper, but all in one ragged hole. I don’t hunt with my Ruger, I shoot target and a number of different targets. Even Bowling pins.

These Ruger Old Army’s do not like being pushed to high velocities with any powder. Accuracy falls off fast as the powder charges go up. My favorite 50 to 75 foot load is 19.1 grains of FFFG American Pioneer with 13.4 grains of corn meal on top of the powder and a .460” diameter cast pure lead ball seated on top. These charge weights are actual scale weights, not volume measurements. This combination provides the right amount of compression of the powder charge when the ball is rammed as far in as the rammer will permit. Some times I use a 1/8” thick dry felt wad on top of the corn meal. I am still not sure if the load with the wad is more or less accurate, the difference is too little. Also, when the wad is added, the bore stays squeaky clean through the entire day. This also makes for very consistent shot to shot compression. No grease on top of the ball. I have never had a chain fire. Use CCI number 11 caps. I found Remington caps to be very poor. Ignition inconsistent and accuracy poor.

When shooting bowling pins or other heavier targets, I go the 35 grains of FFFG American Pioneer. Accuracy is not quite as good as 20 grains, but with the ranges being shorter, hitting a pin is not a problem.
 
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#2 ·
Welcome to the forum Boltman. Rules are simple, be nice and join in. We try to keep the conversations here civil. This is a good place to discuss hunting, shooting and gun related subjects. We do try to keep politics out of the discussions.

When I was shooting black powder rifles I only used subs. Started with Hodgens Pyrodox and then went to triple 7 when it came out. It sure worked good for me. I really liked the cleanup on 777 and it seemed plenty powerful. My last muzzle loader was a Rem 700 ML in 54 and it had plenty of push with Hornedy Great plains 425 grain conicals and 140 grains of triple 7.

Again Welcome to the forum.
 
#3 · (Edited)
If you shoot the ROA much, please take a look at my thread on the ROA here on Beartooth. I have also finshed a many part article on the ROA. In it we talk mainly about the sub powders we use. In fact I just finished the 4th part that covers the final tests with a Kirst cylinder in 45 Colt and hard cast. I sent a disk to Marshall covering the first three parts, I don't know if he plans to put it in Tech Notes. If not you can read it on Dixie Sugs webpage under Tech Notes.
Regards, James
 

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#4 · (Edited)
I really don't know why you feel defensive of your powder choice. The only negatives I've seen posted on substitute powders are that real black is better in most instances. Sustained fire with a revolver may well be an exception. I guess I just haven't seen the negative remarks of which you speak.
As to cleaning, I think it is very well documented that some of the substitute powders do indeed cause rusting after a normal cleaning and cleaning cannot be delayed any longer with substitute powders than with black. My only reaction to the claim, "it cleans with water" is to chuckle "well what doesn't?" The advertising guys seem to think that is a great and wondrous thing. I find no difference at all in cleaning between black and subs except that after cleaning a gun fired with subs I will run an oily patch down bore every day or two for a week just to be safe.
None of the subs can match black in sheer dependability. Black always behaves in an absolutely predictable fashion. Not so with some of the subs which sometimes show surprising pressure spikes. T7 for instance warns "Do Not Compress". Well I've shot ML guns of all types for fifty years and I really don't know how one could load one without compressing the powder. When I load a tight patch and ball combination it takes considerable pressure, maybe thirty pounds, to get the ball down bore and when it stops on the powder charge I apply additional pressure to be sure it IS on the powder and not just hung up on fouling from the previous shot. Likewise with tight wads in a shotgun and oversize balls in a revolver. I suppose one CAN manage to run a ball down to just touch the powder without compressing it but I don't see how it could be worth the extra effort just to use a powder that is more expensive and inferior to black anyway.
I do like Pyrodex in revolvers and some BP cartridges but you won't find any top notch BP cartridge competitors using anything but real black powder. I tried one can of 777 just because Wally World was closing it out cheap. After my target pistol produced several groups of three times the normal one inch I've come to expect from that gun I had seen enough of that powder. Maybe that's why it's called "triple seven", triple the group size with none closer than the seven ring!:D
And I haven't even mentioned flintlocks! The substitute powders were developed because there is a place for them but so long as we can get the real thing there is no reason to settle for a substitute.
 
#5 ·
Have to agree with Joe 100%. Black powder has a more reliable ignition, more consistent performance and for a cheaper price than any sub. Some manufacters claim to get 25% more shots per pound over black powder. What kind of savings is that when you are paying 2 to 3 times as much for the sub? I did buy five pounds of Pyrodex RS from Wal-Mart, when they sold it off for $9 per pound after deer season. I keep this for a couple of my percussion rifles, for when my black powder supply runs low. Cleaning is no different and should be done in a TIMELY manner. Heck, the Army teaches you that! Maintaining your weapons, new or old, is part of gun ownership. Take care of your weapon and it will take care of you. Leaving a dirty gun (any gun) laying around for a month without cleaning it is just plain sloppy! As for revolvers, you have to look at history and their intended purpose. They were a personal defense side arm. Your long arm was your main weapon. Cap and ball revolvers were not made to shoot 30, 40 or 50 rounds, straight. The big deal with the Colt Patterson was it gave the Texas Rangers five shots, compaired to thier single shot carbines. If you needed more than one cylinder, you normally carried a second revolver. You are trying to make an old style revolver perform like a modern one. Like comparing apples to oranges. And as Joe said, forget the subs when it comes to flintlocks. There is nothing wrong with the subs in a percussion firearm. I do it myself, from time to time. Just be aware of some of the false claims by the so called "experts". They are in it for the buck and not for you. You can tell that by their prices. If it floats your boat, shoot it. If it makes you happy and it works for you, then whatever someone else says shouldn't bother you.
 
#6 ·
I shoot all brands of powder. You name it, I've probably shot it at some time, or still am. Some have real nice features to it, but when it comes to walking out to my range and shooting... 95% of the time I use black powder. I use it in traditional rifles and inline rifles. Its cheaper to shoot then any sub powder I can think of unless you find a Wal Mart end of season sale.. it cleans with simple water, no hard crud rings, very consistant accuracy, and it is easier to ignite then any sub powder. As for cleaning a rifle, they all have to be cleaned. No matter what powder you shoot.

I have nothing against sub powders or those that shoot them. Its a matter of choice, and in some cases supply and demand. Black powder is hard to find in some areas. I like the smoke, stink, and just the way black powder makes me feel when I shoot it.
 
#7 ·
I can't say, in all the reading I've done on the internet (It's a lot when I bought the 1858 NA), That I've seen anybody bashing subs. I don't have a choice as I can't find any "real bp" around my area. But I love shooting it and have little use for someone's opinion that seems "purist". Everybody has a right to shoot what they like. More power to them all.
 
#8 ·
Joe said a lot that I'll agree with and add a bit more myself. First, I don't think you've seen any of the "attacks" as you call them that weren't fully justified. I have a nice assortment of fake powders because of my customers so any "attacks" you see from me are based on my experience with the product.

American Pioneer has the following statement: "No lubing or swabbing between shots is required or recommended." Fine and dandy if you're shooting the little pistol bullets wrapped in a plastic condom but have you ever tried loading a tight patch/ball combo without any lube? Take note how AP, nor some other brands, don't say anything about the difficult to remove crud that is formed if you do use lubed bullets/patches.

I haven't tried the AP "sticks" because I never quite understood the whole square peg in the round hole thing. I've heard several others report about powder pellets sailing downrange like tracer rounds and I tended to think it was internet BS until I saw it happen myself with pellets that came out of a factory sealed box. Shockey's Gold is the leader in the lack-of-consistency field. T7 is very particular about the given loading in that it generally does not like larger bores nor heavier payloads and lest we forget the all-to-common "T7 crud ring". When it comes to corrosion, certain powders like Pyrodex are far more corrosive than real black powder - that's not "opinion" or "attack" it's plain and simple "fact".

It's also fact that some of the fake powders have serious ignition/burn-rate consistency issues as well; what works at 21% RH may not be worth a drop of snot when the RH is holding 96%. Other factors also change the consistency such as when loaded in paper cartridges - cartridges loaded with fake powders showed considerable accuracy variations even when stored in the climate controlled house while those loaded with real black powder maintained very acceptable accuracy no matter if stored in the house or sitting on the shelf in my non-climate controlled shop.

When it comes to cleaning, I don't care what powder you use, if there's lube or anything else involved, you need to clean with more than just plain water. At a bare minimum you need some type of detergent and surfactant to break down the lube - for those who use the bullets in plastic condoms, at a minimum chemical solvents are required to remove the raw plastic and organic cleaning agent to remove oxidized/carbonized fouling.

I don't have any problem with fake powders, I have a problem with the BS associated with most of them and the all too common theme of the fake powder companies bashing real black powder - this has lead to serious political repercussions which does nothing but hurt our sport as a whole and that is totally unacceptable! :mad:

I have another major problem with fake powders in that I, along with a large number of other people, primarily or solely shoot flintlocks. I like shooting some percussion guns punching paper but when it comes to hunting, I much prefer using a flintlock.

If you want to use AP, T7, Pyrodex, Buckhorn or whatever, by all means make yourself happy but don't condemn me or anyone else for stating the facts. Just because the facts don't fit your agenda, please don't take the attitude that someone is slighting you and "facts" are not "attacks". How many times have you seen the bullcrap about how dangerous black powder is when it comes to static electricity yet the FACTS prove the claims to be untrue yet some fake powder manufacturers still make the untrue claims .... where's your rant about black powder being demonized for nothing more than sales hype?

If you want to have an honest "discussion" of the facts, I am all for it but if you come off looking for a fight with the attitude that the facts are attacks then you must expect to get some flak. Just to be clear, this is meant as constructive criticism and not a flame or attack on you personally.
 
#9 ·
I just shoot a flinter and only use real black, so I don't have a dog in this fight. However, I'd like to address the problem of Pyrodex corrosion. The nasty ingredient is potassium perchlorate. Any combustion of a perchlorate or chlorate will yield a chloride which is a salt. Chloride salts accelerate rust. Simple.

Check out the MSDS of your powder.
http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Pyrodex.pdf

Bye
Jack
 
#10 ·
Mark has brought up a good point creating the problem that fr3db3ar is having. Before all these sub companies came to being, you could buy black powder in any gun store, hardware store, ect. These sub companies, by making all the false statements against black powder, convinced the government to impose strict regulations on black powder. This is why you go in a gun store today and all you can find is the sub powders. They don't care about anything except the all mighty dollar, not you! As for people like fr3db3ar, there is hope. You can still mail order black powder. Here are a couple of places to check out: http://www.powderinc.com/ and http://www.grafs.com/ . Good luck.
 
#11 ·
I've used Triple 7 for years and like it very much, but when it comes to my .54 cal ML it just doesn't perform nearly as well as Goex. I'm not about to dump all my T7 down the toilet though, it has it's place for the majority of the applications I need it for, just for one rifle Goex is the only thing it likes.
 
#12 ·
Interesting indeed! As for muzzle loading guns, I could tell some very funny stories that go back to the rearly '50's. I will say that we were hunting with them long before the popularity hit. Even today, I think this surge is due to some extra hunting time allowed. In the beginnig we had to deal with many originals that were still floating around. My first was a half stock the had a new breech plug and had been re-rifled. I had a ton of fun with that rifle. We had a small group the hunted the St. Johns river swamp.
Now, for sub powders. I think the first we all tried was Pyrodex...and found just how corrosive it really was. I think more barrels were ruined with it than people will admit.
Today the market seems to be broken down into two groups....one is the more traditional people that were hunting in the past...some with original guns. The other group is the later group hunting mainly with Inlines.
Now I don't think I really belong to either groups as I do lean towards one sub-powder (Black Mag 3) and sometimes another (777)....but I till like side-hammers. I don't pay any more attention to the flames about sub powders anymore than I do about this "Holy Black" thing. If one takes a realistic view, both Subs and Black have both Pros and Cons. I like the Subs in my Ruger Old Army guns. 777 seems to be more powerful in them (by volume) than Black.....and Treso/Ampco are my favorite in both type powders.
You name it...I've shot it, including the heads of the old strike-anywhere matches (that's another story)
While everyone is discussing/cussing about what powder to use....just load up what you like and hit the woods!
Regards, James
 
#13 ·
I know there are places that sell it online......the problem I have is that extra $20 that ups want's to charge for "hazardous materials"

I forget who it was that I saw #10 caps on sale for $3.95 or something like that.....so I figured I'd order 20 or so...to make up for that.....they wanted to charge that $20 for each item......

so much for a sale lol
 
#18 ·
You guys are full of beans. This is all about personal prejudice. Pyrodex & 777 work just fine and are not more corrosive. Goex will destroy a barrel pronto if you don't clean it. Next time you ride on a plane, remember about every part on it has been through a vapor degreaser full of Trich 111.
 
#19 ·
Yep, here we go again! Pyrodex and 777 are two entirely different recipes. There is no prejudice involved.
Black Mag 3 and 777 are somewhat the same with a suger base (citrus peal also). The major problem in the past (as with Clear Shot) was dampness being absorbed. Triple 7, by volume, runs about 10% more power than FFg (or other Subs) and the only problem is a crud ring sometimes that builds up. One of the problems with Black Mag 3 is it does not like heavy lube. We are testing Moly with Black Mag 3 now in handguns.
Goex has shown to have more power than Elephant Brand, but has more dust. Swiss seems to been an extra fine powder and uses Willow wood for carbon.
I also feel the sub powders are better in revolvers as not as much corrosive junk blows down into the gun's guts.
Bottom line is to use whatever you think is best, but understand the powder.
As for being full of beans....I suppose that's better than being full of hot air.
Regards, James
 
#20 ·
When people ask me if Pyrodex RS is corrosive I tell then yes it is. But as already mentioned here, no more so then any other powder. Granted if you shoot all the sub powders, and black powder included in different rifles. and let them sit a couple days... the Pyrodex barrel will start to rust first.

But my question is, how many avid black powder shooters do you know of, would shoot their prize rifle and then let it sit fouled for a couple days. If I shoot a rifle that day, it gets cleaned that night. Never had a rusting problem with any powder. Granted it might be more effort on my part, but I never got into this sport because I was worried about getting a little dirty, hated cleaning a gun, or handling pure lead. You clean rifle rifles at the end of the day, wash your hands after your done handling lead, and I see no problems.
 
#23 ·
What can I say? There are other rasons I like Black Mag 3. I see it would be a waste of time to discuss those reason as everyone seems to have made up their mind indeed.
So...to close, I say shoot whatever you want to!....James
 
#24 ·
Black Mag3 is a great powder. I liked it a lot. Their problem was distribution. It had to be purchased (in my case) on line. And by the time you added the powder cost and the hazmat fee.. I could get a couple pounds of Pyrodex for less money at the end of the season Wal Mart sale. But I did like shooting Black Mag 3. I also like Pinnacle 3f to shoot. Another very good powder. Again, distribution problems.
 
#26 ·
Black Mag3 is a great powder. I liked it a lot. Their problem was distribution. It had to be purchased (in my case) on line. And by the time you added the powder cost and the hazmat fee.. I could get a couple pounds of Pyrodex for less money at the end of the season Wal Mart sale. But I did like shooting Black Mag 3. I also like Pinnacle 3f to shoot. Another very good powder. Again, distribution problems.
I still can't believe the Walmart in your area carries powder of any kind! That's just unheard of around here, you are lucky.
 
#25 ·
I'm not sure what the big deal is with black powder substitutes. I have used triple 7, now I use smokeless powder - 5744. I have a couple Savage ML-IIs and also own a TC Omega and two Knight Disc Extremes. They are all nice guns, but I bet I will be using the Savages 90% of the time. Smokeless powder is much safer than black powder - cleaning is 10 times easier, and performance is somewhat better. I'm not one of those Savage zealots that thinks it makes other guns obsolete. I like the simplicity of the Omega, and the craftsmanship of the Knights and Omegas.

One big reason, is that it is so much cheaper to use smokeless powder - much, much cheaper. It costs 7-10 times as much for triple 7 as it does for 5744. I personally don't believe it makes any difference what you use as long as it is legal. Why draw the line. If anyone is shooting an in-line muzzleloader, they should not have any objections whatsoever. If you are a diehard hunter that still uses a flintlock, then I can understand that you might be a traditionalist. You are also probably a better hunter than me. It's hard enough for me to get a deer with my gun. Why don't all of us muzzleloaders stick together and not get caught up in what powder somebody uses.

My Savage is a nice gun, but it doesn't even come close to a high power rifle. In the end, you are only getting one shot. That's a lot better than somebody unleashing a semi auto at a deer on the move.
 
#27 ·
The Wal-Mart around here carries powder during hunting season. Last year they carried Pyrodex RS. After the hunting season they sold it off for $9 per pound. This year they carried 777. The after season sale price was $18 per pound. The Pyrodex was a good price and can use it in my percussion rifles when my black powder supply gets low. At that point, I save all my black powder for my flintlocks, until my next order of black powder comes in. Yes, I was also surprised that they carried powder here. When I was in California, it was also unheard of.
 
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