» Advanced

Go Back   Shooters Forum > Rifle and Rifle Cartridges > Rifles and Rifle Cartridges
Register FAQ Members List Donate Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read



Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 3 votes, 3.67 average. Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-12-2004, 07:37 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Spanaway Wa/ Lafayette La
Posts: 63
7-08 vs 7x57


Registered Users do not see the above ad.


Hi guys,
Is there any decernable difference between these two rounds?

If my goal is to push a 120 gr bullet at 2800-2900 fps and a 139gr bullet at 2700-2800 fps out a 20" barrel , would it make a difference which round I used?

I know the 7x57 needs a little bit longer action and can't handle as much pressure as the 7-08 but will both rounds meet my goal?

Cajun
__________________
Laissez Les Bon Temps Rouler
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-12-2004, 08:00 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,578
Both rounds will meet your goal, assuming you are reloading your ammo.
The 7x57 cartridge can handle pressure levels similar to the 7-08, but some of the old rifles chambered in 7x57 cannot (1893 Mausers, etc.). In a modern rifle, the 7x57 probably can exceed the 7-08, but not enough to make a practical difference.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-12-2004, 09:59 PM
kombi1976's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Southern NSW, Australia
Posts: 476
Cajun, I moved your question around abit for ease of answering.......hope you don't mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northwest Cajun
Hi guys,
Is there any decernable difference between these two rounds?
I know the 7x57 needs a little bit longer action and can't handle as much pressure as the 7-08 but will both rounds meet my goal?
O.k., the 7x57 Mauser was originally chambered on a medium action unlike almost every other cartridge, which were designed either for short or standard/long actions(except the 257 Roberts, which is derived from the 7x57).
It chambers well in a long action and can handle considerable pressure, like most European cartridges, but as Jack noted, the Mauser 93, 94 and 95 which it was designed for are weaker than the 98 and can't safely handle the 50,000 CUP that the 7x57 case can withstand.
That's why US ammo companies load it low.
It shines, like most 7mm rounds with 140gn bullets but you have to load your own to really get it to perform the way European factory loads do.
They tend to load it hot with heavier bullets.
Check out Sako and Norma figures for 7x57 loads.
The superiority it has over the 7mm-08 is it's ability to use bullets of 150gn, 160gn and 175gn.
The 7mm-08, being a short cartridge suffers from powder space intrusion problems when longer bullets are loaded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northwest Cajun
If my goal is to push a 120 gr bullet at 2800-2900 fps and a 139gr bullet at 2700-2800 fps out a 20" barrel , would it make a difference which round I used?
Since you don't seem interested in using the heavier 7mm bullets the 7mm-08 may be your best bet.
Looking at reloading figures though I think you're going to be close to maximum loads to achieve it.
My question to you is why a 20" barrel?

Here's a thought though.......Have you thought about chambering it in 7x57 Ackley Imp?
You avoid case stretching issues a stack and get 280 Rem performance out of it without a significant jump in chamber pressure.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-13-2004, 06:47 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 181
There's not much difference in these two rounds as loaded by the factories, based upon the availability of weaker M1893 actioned rifles as described by others, however, the 7x57 can certainly be heated up to get better use out of M98 and subsequent actions. The larger bullet option is the best argument for using a 7x57 over a 7mm08. In my Steyr 7x57s I have discovered a distinct preference for 160 grain bullets, which are just too long overall for use in the 7mm-08. On the other hand, if you are using a 7mm08 for basic deer and like the short action, the lightweight 120-140 grain bullets paired with the 08 are just fine. I have shot deer with both calibers and never lost one, so you cannot kill them deader than dead. I don't think anyone could have told a difference.
LLS
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-13-2004, 08:43 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Spanaway Wa/ Lafayette La
Posts: 63
The rifle I'll be building is a "Jeff Cooper" scout ( 1 meter long and under 7 lbs. So I'm limited on how I can get there.
I am leaning tward a 7-08 because of the lighter actions avilable.
It will be a "General Purpose" rifle, light weight, light recoil ( light bullets) able to take out a deer at 300 yds and possibly an Elk at 100 yds( with a heavier premium bullet)
If I ever take a "tactical " rifle course( thunder ranch/gunsite), I'd bring it. also If I could get my wife to go hunting with me and when my daughters are old enough , they will use it.
The powder would most likely be Varget, because thats about all I use and keep 8 lbs on hand. also, no factory loads, strictly handloads.


OK ,...Would a 7-08 Ack Improved be better?

Cajun
__________________
Laissez Les Bon Temps Rouler
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-14-2004, 04:59 AM
kombi1976's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Southern NSW, Australia
Posts: 476
With a 7mm-08 you can effectively fire 150gn bullets but from there your powder space is diminished so it really would have to be 100 yards or less to down an elk. Fans of the 7mm-08 would say it's safe out to much further than that but the 20" barrel will suck some MV off.

As far as the 7mm-08 Ack. Imp. goes this is a guess but I'm not sure you'd benefit much from chambering this round. The 308 Win, which the 7mm-08 is based on, already has quite sharp shoulders and the case walls aren't so slopey like those on the 7x57. P.O.Ackley's improvements involved blowing out the cartridge until the case was almost straight and altering the shoulder angle to 35 degrees thereby increasing powder space, maximising burn efficiency within the case and preventing the neck stretching. I could be wrong.

I stand by my first recommendation though. If you're building a scout rifle on those specs the 7mm-08 is definitely your cartridge. A short action may even allow you another inch on your barrel......although I seriously doubt it.

To be honest if you have to use a heavy bullet in the 7mm-08 you'll learn how to achieve decent loads. I've seen loads for 162gn bullets that range between 2095fps and 2760fps and a well placed shot with a 160gn bullet will stop any elk in it's tracks. Have a look at this link from reloadernest.com about 7mm-08. Varget is listed among the submitted loads & they should give you an idea as to what is achievable.

http://reloadersnest.com/frontpage.asp?CaliberID=43

You probably know as much as anybody that speed isn't everything. A freakin' big bullet moving at a moderately fast pace will have just as effective a result. As LLSierra said, you can't shoot 'em any deader.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-14-2004, 11:59 AM
The Troll Whisperer (Moderator)
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Mesa, Arizona
Posts: 19,763
Last elk I shot was taken with a 7x57 Ack Imp using a 175 gr Remington Core-locked bullet. Distance was in the 275 yd neighborhood and anchored the elk firmly.

A large, well constructed bullet at moderate velocity placed in the correct spot will take any game we intend to encounter.
__________________
NRA Benefactor Member
NRA Certified Police Firearms Instructor
NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
NAHC Life Member

"Firearms only have two enemies - rust and politicans" author unknown
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-14-2004, 06:04 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Spanaway Wa/ Lafayette La
Posts: 63
Hi Guys,
I just got back from talking to the gunsmith who will be helping me build the scout rifle. He'll look for a Rem action but if nothing shows up between now and the time I return from my deployment, we'll build up a mauser. If we go remmington it will be a 7-08 if not we will use a 7x57.
He said that with either action we should be able to make the weight limit.
Thanks everyone for your inputs

Cajun
__________________
Laissez Les Bon Temps Rouler
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-16-2004, 04:47 AM
kombi1976's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Southern NSW, Australia
Posts: 476
Look into my eyes.....you are falling under my spell........build the Mauser! Build the 7x57Mauser!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-16-2004, 06:09 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Alberta
Posts: 434
Rather than going with an Improved version of either, why not just chamber for the .284 Win?
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-16-2004, 06:57 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Spanaway Wa/ Lafayette La
Posts: 63
kombi1976

OK but can I do it(mauser in 7x57) and still be under 7 lbs w/ scope?
Barrel would most likely be a new A&B F14 contour
20" in a carbilite 24oz stock. Alunimum trigger guard,magazine lightened/ fluted bolt, ect, ect

Cajun
__________________
Laissez Les Bon Temps Rouler

Last edited by Northwest Cajun; 12-16-2004 at 06:59 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-18-2004, 05:47 PM
kombi1976's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Southern NSW, Australia
Posts: 476
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northwest Cajun
kombi1976

OK but can I do it(mauser in 7x57) and still be under 7 lbs w/ scope?
Barrel would most likely be a new A&B F14 contour
20" in a carbilite 24oz stock. Alunimum trigger guard,magazine lightened/ fluted bolt, ect, ect

Cajun
I can't see why not if you're going to those lengths with the rest of the rifle.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-20-2004, 06:24 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Gainesville FL and Michigan's UP
Posts: 434
I think the .284 Winchester may be one of the very best hunting cartridges ever developed. Mine is chambered in a compact Browning BLR with a Bushnell Elite 2x7 scope. If I were building a custom rifle this cartridge would be at the top of my consideration. I understand that the .284 is a very popular choice among those ordering Melvin Forbes Ultra Light rifles. The 7-08 would be my next choice.

The problem with the 7mm Mauser is that the standard chamber has a very long throat designed for the 175 grain RN military bullet. With lighter spitzers accuracy is sometimes not as good. The 30-40 Krag suffers from the same problem.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-21-2004, 03:55 AM
kombi1976's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Southern NSW, Australia
Posts: 476
8iowa, that throat length is characteristic of the original military Mausers, not of the modern rifles chambered in this round. As such it shouldn't have the problems you mention. The 30-40 Krag has other issues, like for instance the fact that it was designed for black powder and lead projectiles, something the 7x57 never was. The doesn't make the Krag inherently inaccurate but it certainly has to be considered when using modern jacketted rounds and smokeless powder.

Yes, the .284 Win is an excellent round but in a lightweight rifle with a short barrel I'd imagine it would be very loud and pack a lot of recoil. I don't, of course speak from experience, like you. Do you find this to be so, all things considered?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-22-2004, 04:44 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Gainesville FL and Michigan's UP
Posts: 434
Kombi:

Wow! All the way from austrailia. Isn't this a great forum!

You may very well be right about modern chamberings for the 7mm Mauser having a shorter throat. Like the 8mm Mauser there are a lot of rifles made with different chamber specs and different rates of twist and bore size. Like many of the old black powder cartridges, they were developed before the standards (SAAMI) were created. If someone is considering re-chambering to 7mm Mauser it would be a good idea to consult with their gunsmith, especially as to length of throat and rate of twist.

The 30-40 Krag was the first smokless cartridge in the US and was never loaded with black powder. It's development was a close parallel with the 303 British, which I think was the first smokless cartridge in the UK. These cartridges are so similar that their cases can be re-formed into each other.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-22-2004, 05:39 PM
kombi1976's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Southern NSW, Australia
Posts: 476
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8iowa
Kombi:

Wow! All the way from austrailia. Isn't this a great forum!
Yep, I think so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8iowa
The 30-40 Krag was the first smokless cartridge in the US and was never loaded with black powder. It's development was a close parallel with the 303 British, which I think was the first smokless cartridge in the UK. These cartridges are so similar that their cases can be re-formed into each other.
I apologise, 8iowa. I stand corrected. I'm not sure what I was thinking when I wrote that about the Krag. As a side note, the .303 Brit when first chambered in rifles was loaded with black powder and 215gn lead projectiles. This was for the Lee Metford and Martini Enfield rifles.

But you still haven't answered my question about your .284 Win. What is the muzzle flash and recoil like in your compact Browning?
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-23-2004, 08:40 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Gainesville FL and Michigan's UP
Posts: 434
Kombi:

The only cartridges that I've fired in my .284 BLR are those that I have loaded. IMR 4350 seems to be the best all around powder. I get 2900 fps with the Hornady 139 gr Spire point and 2750 fps with the 154 gr Hornady. I have had shooters on either side of me complain about the muzzle blast of the 139 gr load, but then the shooting benches at our range are so close together that you get showered with brass if the guy to your left is shooting an autoloader. This year I got two deer with the 154 grain load, shooting from a small blind and I didn't notice any excessive noise or blast.

One Whitetail was a big bodied 6 point. The 154 gr Hornady entered his right shoulder, blasted thru the heart and lungs, and exited just behind the right shoulder. The deer was dead before he hit the ground. The range was about 125 yards. This is an impressive cartridge to chamber in a compact rifle.

The Browning BLR-81 has a magazine that limits my overall length to 2.815 inches, requiring bullets to be seated rather deeply. Therefore I use flat base bullets in order to conserve powder space. I've even loaded the 175 grain Hornady RN bullet to over 2500 fps, but have not had the opportunity to try this load on game. A bolt action rifle chambered for 7-08 could be rechambered to .284 and would probably have a magazine that would allow bullets to be seated to a longer OAL, giving one the opportunity to use a wider selection of bullets, and possibly slightly higher velocities depending on the barrel length. The BLR however is a terrific hunting rifle, but I'm not sure if you are allowed to own one in Australia.

I have a collection of rifles from .220 Swift to 300 H&H and it's obvious to me that this BLR in .284 is the best "all around" rifle in my battery.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-23-2004, 04:35 PM
kombi1976's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Southern NSW, Australia
Posts: 476
Sounds impressive, 8iowa. Does the intrusion into the powder space make a marked difference though? I wouldn't have thought this would make a great deal of difference due to the size of the .284 Win case. I haven't really looked at the figures but in many ways it's the original 7mm WSM and can probably equal or exceed the newer cartridge.

And, yeah, in Australia we can own lever and pump action centrefires in any cal but we can't own any semiautos in either rimfire or centrefire without a special permit or for that matter pump action shotguns. Why pump action centrefires are less lethal that pump action shotties is beyond me and strangely the laws don't seem to be restricting the criminals.

But that's beside the point.

Merry Christmas from Down Under to y'all and stay safe.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-23-2004, 08:01 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Gainesville FL and Michigan's UP
Posts: 434
Kombi: Merry Christmas to you too as you are a day ahead of us.

My .284 loads with IMR 4350 are very slightly compressed. The only bullets that would be uncomfortably compressed would be the longer solid copper Barnes bullets, and possibly the 175 grain spitzers. I would be glad to send you my loading data and chonograph results in a PM if you wish. You are correct, in many ways the .284 Winchester was the original 7mm short magnum and in a 20 inch barrel the new WSM would not offer any advantage.

Unfortunately, .284 Browning BLR's are hard to find, and as a matter of fact any rifle chambered in .284 is scarce. It's a cartridge that was ahead of it's time. It would be fairly easy to rechamber a 7-08 BLR into the .284 Winchester and then order the .284 magazine from Browning.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-05-2007, 08:52 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Saguache Colorado
Posts: 1
Talking 7x57

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northwest Cajun
The rifle I'll be building is a "Jeff Cooper" scout ( 1 meter long and under 7 lbs. So I'm limited on how I can get there.
I am leaning tward a 7-08 because of the lighter actions avilable.
It will be a "General Purpose" rifle, light weight, light recoil ( light bullets) able to take out a deer at 300 yds and possibly an Elk at 100 yds( with a heavier premium bullet)
If I ever take a "tactical " rifle course( thunder ranch/gunsite), I'd bring it. also If I could get my wife to go hunting with me and when my daughters are old enough , they will use it.
The powder would most likely be Varget, because thats about all I use and keep 8 lbs on hand. also, no factory loads, strictly handloads.


OK ,...Would a 7-08 Ack Improved be better?

Cajun


I use a 7x57 on a 1908 DWM and I have never conographed it but i start with the 7mm-08 loading specs and load until my primers flatten and then back off a grain. I have had good luck with 140 boat tail seirra's on elk. I'm not sure what the muzzle velocity is but I'm sure the the7x57 will out perform the 7mm-08 due to the fact that it has halph a centimeter more case capacity.

Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
6.5x55 and 7x57.... potential varmint loads? steve-in-kville Rifles and Rifle Cartridges 7 02-22-2004 06:34 AM
CZ550 in 7x57 steve-in-kville Rifles and Rifle Cartridges 8 02-17-2004 06:42 PM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:40 PM.

< Contact Us - Shooters Forum - Archive >

 
 

All Content & Design Copyright © 1999-2002 Beartooth Bullets, All Rights Reserved
View Privacy Policy | Contact Webmaster | Legal Information
Website Design & Development By Exbabylon Internet Solutions
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2