Greetings,
I have a coworker who inherated this rifle.
He advised me that it had not been fired since he was a kid, way back in the early 60's.
It looks like brand new, and hardly fired at all, it was in his family forever.
I advised him to take it to the local smitty, which he did.
The results were, the gun is in excellent condition.
However he was advised that he should order ammo on line as he was told not to use the standard .35 rem. as sold at the local wally world.
Well the $64k question is, is the ammo too modern to run through and the brass of a different configurement or what ...?
We really want to pull the trigger on this old gal, but safely.

thanks for any info, you guys are great.

Webfoot

Assuming the original description is correct, the caliber would be .35 WSL (Winchester Self Loading) This is a completely different cartridge than .35 Remington. I would contact The Old Western Scrounger. Modern ammunition isn't a problem, since there is no such thing! What is available is new loaded adapted by custom loaders from modern cases which have been modified to use in these old guns.

Correct. The .35 Rem ammo should not fit in the magazine, and I'd hope it won't even chamber! Old Western Scrounger is the only place I've ever heard of for the .35 WSL, in recent times.

__________________
MikeG

These guys have it right...that .35WSL round (WSL = Winchester Self Loading) looks a bit like a semi-rimed .357mag. case...straight, looks like a rimless case (but has a little semi-rim), and loaded with .351" bullets. Even Wichester was unimpressed by the ballistics and by 1907 had come out with a longer version called the .351WSL (same shape case, just longer).

Actaully, looking at the dimentions, it's more of a long cased .38Super (or .38ACP) than anything else.

Won't take .35Rem. or anything else but .35WSL...that round is still loaded by some custom ammo makers (who usually trim .351WSL to the old shorter length or lathed .357Mag. cases to the new rim confiduration).

Cough up the $ for a box of the customed loaded ammo if you've the urge to shoot the old girl...but have some one who knows these old rifles give it a good once-over before pulling that trigger.

Really are beautiully machined rifles...but work like a big .22 Semi-auto. Blow back action, no lock, and to get that to work, there is a giant heavy weight attached to the bolt that cylces back and forth in the hollow fore end. Has a rather unique feel when shot as a LOT of weight moves back and forth very quickly when she fires.

HAve used a .351WSL and a .401WSL; all the WSL serises are odd-balls that you just won't into all that often...with the exception of the .351WSL. That one somehow found favor with prison guards in the past, and Winchester kept making ammo for those old guns right up into the late 1970's.

Had an old Angola State Prison .351WSL that I did take hunting several times...and it is no where near as bad as the old writters claim. I suspect they never fired one...but 180gr. at 1850fps is a bit more than you'll get from the average .357mag. carbine...so whatever you feel is fair game for a .357 lever gun would be right for the .351WSL.

Your little .35WSL will toss the same 180gr. bullet (if you can find any that are .351" in diameter) at about 1400fps...which is about what a really-really good .357mag. handgun can do....so if it's fair game for a .357 handgun, the .35WSL can handle it.

For the sake of completeness, the .401WSL (using .406" bullets) will toss a 200gr. bullet at a bit over 2000fps or a 250gr. bullet at just about 1850FPS...this one fits a Winchester 1910, but it looks and runs like the others of the WSL seriese. This one does whatever you can do with a .44mag. carbine (and that they got this from a small case like the .401WSl BEFORE WWI is just short of amazing).

Haven't (yet) played with a .32WSL..that's the other chambering for that 1905 rifle...and this one tosses a 165gr. bullet at about 1400fps. This matches the BLACK POWDER loading of the 32-40 pretty well, so if you feel a black powder loaded 32-40 will do the job, so will the .32WSL.

Thanks so much for your reply.
Yes it is a WSL,in .35cal.
The ammo is about $68.00 to the door.
We have a Gun Show in a couple of weeks, hope to find brass or whatever.
We were wondering if you guys would know if anyone of the die-manufactuers might still make any.
Thanks again

Webfoot

Upon further review, Cabela's has the winning price of $24.99 + shipping.
Isn't life grand.
Should be shooting by next weekend.

Webfoot

Here's the good news:

At the start will need a .38 Super die set , a home-modified expander, and a .38Super shell holder to load it. The bullets are .351" but the brass is thick...sizing dies don't know the thickness, sizing dies are only concerned with the outside, so with the thick brass the .38super die does set the case mouth correctly for .351" bullet use.

Would neck size any case that freely re-enters the chamber with a set up in the press .38super die. Set aside any case that needs full length sizin for the time being, you really don't want to run them all the way into a .38super die set as that tends to over size the neck area.

For the ones that won't re-chamber, they really need a full length sizing.


Turning down the expander can be difficult or easy, depending on how the hardened the steel (some are just rock hard, and others seem to be un hardened). Can be as simple as spinning the expander in a drill and riubbing it against emory paper.

These rifles are blow backs, so they need a certain level of energy to function...but do NOT handle over pressure loads well. Loading should be for functioning, with very little wiggle room above that for an accuarcy search. If you get fucntioning, but can't find accuracy, then switch powders. Best advice I can give you is that so far, with two .351's and one .401, IMR 4227/H4227 has always been the top performing powder (and the H4227 is a little slower than the IMR vesion).

BAd news:

Jacketed and cast bullets are being made...will have to hunt them up from speciality makers. Sizing dies for lead bulles will also have to be made. However, did notice that a cast bullet pushed through a RCBS 9mm taper crimp die pops out the top at .3525" which is a useful diameter.

Caast bullet loading can be fustrating, but it is possible to get a good cast bullet load working. No where near as easy as othere cast bullet projects, that blanace between enough power to cycle the action and accuaracy is a hard one. IF just under minimum cycling, then the action tends to 1/2 cycle and crush the case (stove pipe..but that brech block and fore arm weight is heavy enough to rush the case).

Take care of that hollow thin fore end...it is thin and hard to duplicae if shattered.

Do NOT try for a full dissassembly. Can break the rifle into it's two main sub-sections easily (it's a take down rifle) and from there it's a matter of soak, brush, blow out with air to clean it. Having been inside these things for awhile, they are not the easiest to completely take down; lucky you can reach everything you need to reach without doing so.

ribbonstone,
Wow, thanks for all of the information.
I explained to him about this website, of how good it is and you did not let me down.
After he reads this he just might keep it around for another half century and give it to his son, as his father before him.
I'm going to recommend a Big-Bore Lever if need be.
Thanks again

Webfoot

Upon further review, Cabela's has the winning price of $24.99 + shipping.
Isn't life grand.
Should be shooting by next weekend

I'd be pretty surprised if Cabela's had .35 WSL. Be sure it isn't .351WSL. They are not interchangable.
Also look at Buffalo Arms (Buffaloarms.com). He has .35 WSL at $24.75/20, and is great to do business with.

May as well go all the way.

Had a .352" draw die made...wiould run .357" 158gr. bullets through it. Some worked fine, others woule do go pieces in flight. Traced that problem to jacket spring-back. When you size down a jacketed bullet, the jacket wants to spring back a bit asfter exiting the die...the lead core doesn't spring back...so you end up witha loose jacket/croe fit.

Made a second set of dies, the first took the .357" bullets doen to .350" and the second bumped them up (reshaping the nose to RN) to .352". This cured the problem just fine.

Only hunting I did with the .351 (which I remind you is about 400fps faster than the .35WSL) was for whitetail deer...we don't grow them real big down here, and the ranges in South Louisiana tend to be short...so it worked fine. Factory 180gr. JSP's probably will expand a bit on a cinder black wall...on anything softer, don't expect expansion....driving them 400fps slower in the .35WSL isn't going to help. Better to aim at the shoulder and break the deer down, then add a fast finisher if it's needed.

Found H110 and 296 to be poor choices...you can't use a full case, and thesde poweders kind of resnt not being loaded to near 100% density....will show it by spitting buring powder out the ejction port. Stick with IMR 4227 if you reload this round.

take the time to really look at hoiw that rifle is made...even the magazine is precision...thick meatl, machined fololwer, and a little roller bearing in the front of the follower to make it run smoothly...not needed, but the idea of an semi-auto was pretty new in 1905.

DO NOT buy anything that just says 35 Winchester! That's a whole different cartridge. Only buy products labeled 35 Winchester SL.

Ammo:
Cabela's is your best option. Also:
www.buffaloarms.com
http://www.qual-cart.com/35%20WSL.htm

Brass:
Can be converted from 357 Magnum: case trimmed, rim turned down, extraction groove cut. That's what Cabela's ammo is made from, as evidenced by their headstamp.
Or buy .351 WSL brass and cut it to the correct length. Bertram Brass and Buffalo Arms make new .351 WSL brass.

.351" Cast Bullets
http://missoula.bigsky.net/western/cbip/b351.html

.351" Jacketed Bullets
http://www.hawkbullets.com/P-LIST.htm
http://www.ows-ammunition.com/ <- Much cheaper

Reloading Dies:
I'm assuming you may use .351 WSL dies (I've never tried); same concept of reloading 357 Mag and 38 Special with the same set. C&H, Redding, and RCBS all make .351 WSL sets you can use. RCBS is very expensive and on a custom order basis for this caliber. Redding or C&H are right now the cheapest; C&H can be bought at Old Western Scrounger for $65.21, Redding at MidwayUSA for $70.

C&H is your best bet for correct 35 WSL dies
http://www.ch4d.com/catalog/reload_d...oad_dies_8.htm

Compare the prices between .351 WSL and .35 WSL dies:
http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteabro...*702***8344***
http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteabro...*702***8344***

If this gun is in as good condition as you say it is, then it is to be considered a collector's piece most likely worth near $600.

Please, take the best care in reloading, shooting, and maintenance. Replacement parts are not easy to find or cheap. Don't disassemble it yourself beyond the take-down feature -Ribbonstone can tell you how much fun it can be to put back the recoil spring.

Here's some goodies:

The 10 round magazines were introduced in 1911 for the Models 1905 and 1907 but were never introduced for the Model 1910. You can find original Model 1907 ten-rounders easily but the Model 1905's are the proverbial hen's teeth.

For what it's worth, Triple K makes new Model 1907 five and ten round magazines: http://www.ammoclip.com/M/model-1907.htm They will not fit the Model 1905 and are marked .351 Cal on the bottom. The original Model 1905 magazines were marked .35 Cal on the bottom. Your only hope of getting another one is to watch ebay.

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Not lisated in those reprints, but the old Angola State Prison guard gun had a 10round magazine. Don't believe the earier .32WSL and .35WSL had that option, but it's possible some were made for the .401WSL.

Unless the rifle in question looks like the ones illustrated, then it's not chambered for the .35WSL. IF it looks like a large lever action, with a box. mad ahead of the trigger, then it could be chambered for the .35Winchester...which is a whold different (and more powerful)critter.

Will repeat what the last poster mentioned: do NOT take that rifle all the way down. Are several parts that you will need to make some tools to get back into the spots they are supose to occupy...and no real good guides for the tool making, it's seat-of-the-pants tool construction. Breaking the rifle into ti's two main sections (take down rifle...has a knurled screw at the back of ther eciver held by a spring detent...will alloy you to se[perate the rifle into upper reciever/barrel/fore arm seciton and lower reciver/trigger group/butt stock section) will let you get to anything that just needs clwaning. IF something brakes, find a 'smith that knows these rifle sand gladly pay him to get it running again.