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  #1  
Old 03-19-2005, 08:31 PM
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Rem Mountian LSS Vs Win Classic Featherweight Stainless


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I've decided on a 7MM-08 in a light weight rifle. I had kind of settled on the Rem 700 Mountain LSS but got to hold a Winchester 70 Classic Featherweight today and it sure did fit well and I really like the looks of it as well.

Winchester has a new Stainless model of their M70 Classic Featherweight that I would be interested in.

So......between these two...which way to go? Both are stainless, one has laminated stock, the other wood. Both have 22" barrels. What are the Pro's / Cons, the Good, the Bad, & the ugly of these two rifles?

Remington 700 Mountain LSS


Winchester M70 Classic Featherweight Stainless



Any insight you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
firstshot
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Last edited by firstshot; 01-06-2006 at 08:50 AM.
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  #2  
Old 03-19-2005, 08:42 PM
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Laminates don't look as good as natural wood (although, some stocks being made in Montana these days look so natural, it's spooky!).

Laminates will resist warping and are heck for stout. Due to the epoxy processing, they are a bit heavier than regular wood stocks. Will take a beating around much better than regular.

Natural wood stocks (especially black walnut) are things to behold. Nothing feels or looks better, IMO, than a nicely configured and finished walnut stock. These must be sealed carefully to avoid moisture and warping.
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  #3  
Old 03-19-2005, 08:49 PM
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Firstshot

I can't tell you about the Winchester except it is a nice looking rifle. I have an older Remington Mountian rifle in 280 Remington. I like the look and feel of this rifle and I am developing loads for it now.

I looked and handled a bunch of light rifles and this just felt right to me. I also like the Winchester, but got a good deal on the Remington and went for it. Mine is wood and blue steel which I've kinda went back to after several stainless and plastic stocked guns. I just seem to like the look and feel better. The felt recoil on my Remington is very low and the gun is pleasent to shoot.

My recommendation is to get the one that feels better when you pick it up and put it to your shoulder. I think both are excellent. I think that 7mm cal should be good medicine for deer.

I had a Ruger 77 ultralight in 270 a few years ago and it kicked like a mule. traded it off after only a couple of months. Nice looking little gun, but felt kicked worse than my 8mm magnum.

Good luck on finding the right one for you.
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  #4  
Old 03-20-2005, 05:15 AM
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First of all don't pick a sporting rifle by how well it takes a beating. A rifle has feelings too, abuse them and they might decide to misbehave a little. Alway treat your rifles gently, with care and compassion, clean them regularly, and they will be good to you. On the occasion bad things do happen, but if you slip and drop your rifle in the rocks it doesnt really matter what kinda stock you have, rocks are harder therefore it will make a ding.
Natural wood is more sensitive to changes in mositure, but when properly sealed the effects are minimal, now if you like sumberge your gun in water for a day that will make a difference, but that comes back to proper care and treatment. It really comes down to preference, which do you personally like. I know i sound like a natular freak but im not im pretty open minded. my 243 & 30-06 wear natural the 300wby, 12ga, and .22 have composite. And if i find a good source i might get a laminate 600 rem.
Always, always,always zero your rifle if you think that it might be even off a little, better to shoot a couple of shots at camp and know that you on than to miss your trophy, that goes for all stock types. well, man take your pick, both are good guns by good companies and i think they will both serve you well.

Last edited by coyote_243; 03-20-2005 at 05:17 AM.
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  #5  
Old 03-20-2005, 07:51 AM
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I would agree with the thought of buying the one that feels the best to you, and the one that you like the look of. The two rifles are almost identical, what with 22 inch barrels. The Winchester stock is well sealed, so that is not a question these days.
I have a Winchester Featherweight, or two, and I am very happy with them. They look nice, they carry well when I am walking in the woods, and they are accurate enough for any deer hunting that I do.
At the same time I have a Remington M700 ADL to compare it with. While not identical to your pair, the action is the same. I have no problems with it all.
Only nice feature of the Winchester that is no found on the Remington is the ability to remove the firing pin assembly without tools. I often screw the assembly out when I am checking loads (I can feed the loads through the magazine and into the chamber with no possibility of firing the round). It also allows me to clean the spring and pin, especially if I have to remove the oil for sub-zero hunting.
I would recommend you go with the feel.
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  #6  
Old 03-20-2005, 09:12 AM
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Thanks to all for your replies.

From the comments received so far, it seems to be a toss up, with the edge going to which ever one feels, shouders and points best for me.

I will definitely handle both rifles again before making a decision; however, as it currently stands, I'm kind of leaning toward the Rem LSS due to the lamanited wood stock.

I've had quite a few indicate that they achive sub moa accuracy with the Mtn LSS, but have had no accuracy indications related to the Win featherweight.

What about the "Controlled Round Push Feed (CRPF) bolt" & "three position safety" on the Winchester? Is this an advantage or just marketing hype?


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  #7  
Old 03-20-2005, 11:37 AM
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What about rifling twist rate? The winchester has a 1 in 10 and the remington a 1 in 9 1/4. Not a whole lot of difference, but would one favor heavier bullets better than the other?

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  #8  
Old 03-21-2005, 07:28 AM
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The faster the twist the heavier the bullet a barrel will stabalize. Now with that said I don't think the difference between a 9.5 and a 10 twist will make a hill of beans for any hunting rifle. If you were target shooting with 7mm bullets heavier than 175 grains it might. I would not worry a bit about that much twist difference.
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  #9  
Old 03-21-2005, 09:28 AM
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I have owned two different LSS Mountain rifles and never got close to sub MOA accuracy with either one after extensive load development, bedding and trigger work. I wouldn't expect an out of the box factory gun with a .550" diameter barrel to shoot sub-moa, although I am sure some do. Both of mine were accurate enough for hunting and I liked the guns overall.
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  #10  
Old 03-21-2005, 11:48 AM
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I owned a push-feed Win 70 featherweight 270. It functioned flawlessly and printed little 5/8" groups. I liked the gun and killed many deer with it, but the experience showed me that I don't care for the 270 and I traded away the rifle. I have wanted to try a classic featherweight with the CRF action but have not yet. If they are anything like my 1948 M70 or my 1928 M54, then they would be fine rifles indeed.

If I may, I suggest you investigate the M70 classic compact in 7-08. I like shorter, lighter rifles and I think the compact is the sweetest Winchester M70 in the lineup. I bought a 308 for me but my wife took it from me and never offered to return it. Dang. I replaced the factory buttpad with an aftermarket vented recoil pad which brought the LOP back up to a more 'standard' 13-1/2". She just loves that rifle.

The Win M70 featherweight barrel is a little heavier than the Rem M700 Mountain. Because of this, I would bet the Win shoots better on average than the Rem, but I have not owned a Rem mountain so take that comment as you will. I do believe the Rem mountain is a little lighter overall than the Win featherweight.

Check out the Win M70 classic compact - you'll be glad you did.

Live well

Last edited by Big Redhead; 03-21-2005 at 11:50 AM.
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  #11  
Old 03-21-2005, 04:23 PM
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Thank you all so much for your responses, information, opinions, and recommendations. I chose the Remington Mountian LSS and went out and picked it up at lunch today. Beautiful gun. Sure hope it shoots as good as it looks!! I'll keep ya posted.

Thanks again!!

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  #12  
Old 03-21-2005, 05:01 PM
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There are several things that you can do to improve the accuracy of any rifle.

Glasbed and pillerbed the action and trigger guard.
Adjust the trigger to 3 to 3.5 pounds with no overtravel or creep.

Free float the barrel

I have just started working up loads for my mountian rifle so will see how it will shoot this week.

I put a Simmons ATEC 2.8 to 10 on mine and will get it sighted in this week if the rain lets up.

I really like the Remingtons and have had great luck with them. I have two 8mm Mags, one older BDL and one classic, a 243 heavy barrel laminated stock heavy barrel, a model seven in 308 and the 280 mountian rifle.

I to am interested in what kind of accuracy I can obtain from that light 22 inch barrel. I spent 27 years with a part time gunsmith shop and used to build ultra-light rifles for fella's chasing after sheep in Alaska.

These were built on Remington 700 actions, factory or custom barrel's turned to dimensions simular to the mountain rifles and Brown precision glass stocks. They were glass bedded and glued in so as not to require action screws. Topped of with one of Leapolds 2-7 compact scopes they tipped the scales under six pounds. They were built in 270, 280 and 284 Winchester calibres.

They all shot under an inch at a hundred or never went out the door. So I know that these Remington light rifles will shoot, but with any lightwieght rifle it may take some load development and a little tweaking.

Good luck with your new rifle and keep me posted on how it shoots.
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  #13  
Old 03-22-2005, 08:51 AM
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faucettb

I've heard on other forum that the light barrel on the Mountain LSS needs a "preasure point" that is built into the stock and therefore the barrel should not be free floated.

You know anything about this?

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  #14  
Old 03-22-2005, 11:09 AM
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firstshot,

You spurned my last advice but I'll give you just one more chance to learn from me:

There are no hard/fast rules on barrel bedding as each rifle is different, but in general, lighter barrels want a pressure point, whereas free floating usually works best with heavier barrels. Exceptions always exist.

Just kidding about the spurning thing. Go ahead and buy your Remington rifles - see if I care.

Live well

Last edited by Big Redhead; 03-22-2005 at 12:34 PM.
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  #15  
Old 03-22-2005, 06:08 PM
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Firstshot and bigredhead

What you've heard can be true for light barrels and heavier barrels also. It really depends upon the individual rifle. Not every light barrel will respond the same.

You really need to shoot it first to identify if there are any problems. I've found some light barrels respond well to about seven pounds pressure at the end of the stock if they won't shoot free-floated. One way to tell, is if your groups are larger than you want, place a layer or even two of old credit card between the barrel and stock near the end of the stock. If groups improve you will probaly need some pressure pushing up on the barrel to shoot well. You can do the same thing to find out if it shoots better free-floated by putting the credit card shims just in front of the recoil lug if you think the barrel needs free floated to shoot better.

The easiest way to get a consistent weight is just hang seven pounds of weight or the weight you feel necessary on the end of the barrel when you glasbed it. Put the whole thing in a vise upside down, hang the weight on the end of the barrel. When the bedding has set up take it apart clean up and put back togather. when you tighten down the action you will have around seven pounds pushing up on the barrel at the end of the stock.

I used to work with some folks at Speer bullets back in the late 60's and they were testing different glassbedding systems. They found that barrels that were under three pounds didn't seem to shoot better groups free floated or bedded in solid. It takes a pretty good sized barrel to top three pounds by its self. This again was not an imperiacal test as they only tried around 20 or so rifles.

Anyway you both brought up a good point, thanks for reminding me.
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  #16  
Old 03-22-2005, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Redhead
firstshot,

Go ahead and buy your Remington rifles - see if I care.

Live well

Big Redhead

I did try to find a M70 Custom Featherweight "STAINLESS" at every gun shop in the area. They all checked with their suppliers and none of them had it in stainless and none could say when they would be getting any in. Sooooo, I went ahead and got the Rem. which was on-hand.

faucettb & Big Redhead

I won't be doing anything to the gun until I've shot it a bit. Trigger pull is not too heavy but there is quite a bit of creep in it. Will probably be replacing it.

Will keep ya posted on how she shoots.

Thanks again for all the great info / advice!!!

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  #17  
Old 03-23-2005, 08:38 AM
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firstshot, I would not replace the trigger on a model 700 that I intended to use for hunting - these are fantastic factory triggers. They are fully adjustable for creep, overtravel and pull wt. The problem people have in trying to get the pull wt below 3lbs is that the trigger return spring is stiff and short and by turning the adjustment screw out far enough in hopes of getting a lighter pull, the spring is too short to return the trigger properly and this results in the gun not cocking and/or inconsistent pull wts. All you need is a lighter and longer trigger return spring. Holland's Gunsmithing sells these through Brownell's if you don't want to come up with your own. With that spring you should be able to get 2 lbs easy. The Timney trigger is almost exactly like the Remington, but has the lighter & longer return spring and has lock nuts on all the adjustment screws, which is nice, but a little lock tite on the Remington keeps them from moving just fine. I once took a M700 to a well known BR gunsmith to have it rebarelled and he saw I put a Timney trigger on it and said "What in the world did you do that for?" and handed me some different return springs and I have used them on several since then with good success.
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  #18  
Old 03-23-2005, 04:15 PM
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SMK

Thanks for the advice on the Rem trigger. I'll just get my gunsmith to do his trigger magic on it.

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  #19  
Old 03-23-2005, 08:36 PM
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firstshot here is how to adjust the Remington Trigger. It's not hard at all. Just remember to put some finger nail polish on the screws when your done. Oh be sure and get a trigger pull gauge before you start.

Adjusting the Remington 700 Trigger
To Steve, many thanks for showing me how to do this many years ago!

Background:
The Remington trigger system is a very good system that in years past came directly from the factory with a crisp and reasonable pull. These days however, Remington is producing triggers that are not as smooth and are liability proof with pull weights that have gotten to the point of being ridiculous. These changes are due to Remington trying to reduce the cost of their rifles and the ever present fear of civil liability from a trigger that is too light. If you are not conscious of gun safety and are not smart enough to keep your fingers off your trigger until you are ready to fire, I kindly ask you to read no further and find another hobby as I accept no responsibility for stupid people. The modifications that I am about to discuss have the potential to be extremely dangerous if not done carefully! If you have the slightest doubt about what you are doing, I strongly urge you to have a competent gunsmith adjust your trigger for you as the cost is minimal.

The Remington trigger:
The Remington 700 Trigger has three screws, two in the front and one in the back.
The top one on the front is the overtravel adjustment. The bottom one on the front is the trigger pull adjustment. the screw on the back is the sear engagement.


When you look at your trigger you will see that the heads of these screws are covered in a glue or loctite. To adjust your trigger it will be necessary to scrape this glue off the screw heads and then determine if your screw heads are slotted or allen head. The next step in this process is to break the screws loose and add a small drop of oil to help with adjustments. I normally run the screws in and out a couple times to make sure that the screw is not binding and the surfaces of the screw are completely covered in oil.

Adjusting the trigger:
Back out the spring tension (trigger pull) screw to a light trigger pull that is adequate to keep some pressure on the trigger but is very light (trigger pull will be set later). Next back out the sear engagement screw, and the over travel screws several turns.

Once the screws are adjusted as above, close the bolt (without dry firing) and SLOWLY turn the sear engagement screw in until the firing pin is released. From this point, back the screw out a half turn. Without recocking the firing pin, screw the over travel screw in until you feel it contact the trigger lightly, preventing the trigger from moving. From this point, back the over travel screw out a quarter turn. When you pull the trigger at this point there should be a very slight movement of the trigger.

To adjust the trigger pull, adjust the spring tension screw to a pull that you like. As you turn the screw in the trigger pull will be increased and the pull will be reduced as the screw is backed out. I would not recommend going lighter than 1 to 1.5-pounds with a factory trigger and I prefer a trigger closer to 2 to 2.5-pounds for a big game rifle.

Work the bolt several times to cock the rifle and try the trigger with the trigger gauge and your finger to make sure that you are happy with how the trigger pull and release feels and the weight is something that you are comfortable with. I also recommend the use of a good trigger gauge to confirm that you are getting a consistent break. If the break you are getting is not consistent, then you may need to increase the trigger pull or consider having the trigger rebuilt or replaced by a competent gunsmith.

Safety Checks!
After you are happy with the feel of the trigger it is essential that you perform a safety check as described here. First, slam the bolt closed HARD up to a dozen times watching to see if the sear allows the firing pin to be released. If the firing pin is released, back out the sear engagement screw another 1/4 turn, and repeat slamming the bolt again.
Next, cock the firing pin and put the weapon on "SAFE" and pull the trigger, release the trigger, put the weapon on "FIRE". Repeat this process several times and if the firing pin is released, increase the trigger pull and repeat this process.
Once these safety checks are performed, take nail polish and seal the heads of the screws and allow it to dry. I normally try to use two coats to make sure that the screws are properly glued in place. Once adjusted, the Remington trigger rarely needs additional adjustment and can be as good as many after market triggers.

Postscript:
I have recently purchased a new Remington 700 Classic that quite literally had the God awful worse trigger I have ever felt on any gun. This trigger was rough in the sear engagement and the trigger spring itself was too stiff to allow for any adjustment that was acceptable for my taste. I understand that it is possible to buy replacement trigger springs and to have the sear surface polished but these are tasks that are beyond my level of understanding so I took a trigger out of a well used Remington 700 ADL from the early 1970's and swapped it for my new trigger. I felt guilty selling my old ADL with that new Rem. 700 trigger that was so lousy, but at least the gun that I wanted to keep has a crisp 2-pound trigger that I can trust to work as a quality trigger should!

As you can see sometimes a trigger is just to bad to adjust. If this is the case then the Jewel along with Timney and Rifle basic are good triggers. If you want the best of both worlds I suggest a Canjur single set. It can be set for hunting weight 2-4 pounds and the single set part at ounces.

For a big game rifle most folks recommend 3.5 pounds. For varmit rifles 2.5 works well. Just keep in mind two light a trigger can be dangerous. Lots of times even if you have a 5 pound trigger if it is crisp with no overtravel and no creap it will shoot really well.

If your not mechanicly inclined have a gunsmith install your new trigger.

Good luck on your trigger quest
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Old 03-24-2005, 07:01 PM
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I was bitting my tongue on this tread before giving in to my long carried feelings about the Winchester model 70 Classic or pre- 64 action models. I just love those featherweights by the way!

First off I don't hate Remingtons, or Savages's or Weatherby's, I do have some of those in the vaults also. I just don't think they are as good, as what you get in all the add-ons with a Winchester model 70 Classic period.

I'll desect that for you just a bit OK! Now the model 70 in the pre-64 action, gives you the Control Round Fed Magazine. a must for those who hunt "dangerous game" animals. Next is the Big Claw (Over twice the size of a Remington) Extractor, followed up by the only real safety on the market with they exception of Rugers 3 position safety, which is the same as the model 70 Winchesters, only the model 70's is a bit larger and easier to operate.

I will also tell you that the model 70 BOLT is a solid piece of steel, part of the action and not "spot welded" on like the Remingtons, that do come off sometimes. All of those things I just mentioned above that Winchester & Ruger put on their rifles, would cost you close to $700 additional dollars to have a gunsmith install on a Savage, Remginton etc. So, you get your cake & ice cream too for a lot less money.

I must admit, I am a bit prejudice towards the model 70 Winchster's with the pre-64 actions, having aquired close to 2 dozen of the various caliber model 70 Winchester rifles over the past 4 decades. By the way, the folks at Winchester might tell you they have never made a stainless featherweight in a .270 caliber or the 30-06 caliber but none the less I have both models. Sometimes they forget what they do make for production to the general public. Winchester model 70 is the real "Rifleman's Rifle"!!!

Last edited by 2Bits; 03-24-2005 at 07:07 PM.
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