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  #1  
Old 05-17-2006, 05:36 PM
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Winchester model 1910 & 410 SL ammo


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I know a gentleman who owns a Winchester 1910 in 410 sl . Does anyone make this ammo? He has had this rifle for his intire life and never shot it. It was handed down to him w/ no ammo. Thanks, JP
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  #2  
Old 05-17-2006, 07:23 PM
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He may be looking for the wrong thing, it is .401SL. The Old Western Scrounger, Buffalo Arms are two likely suspects to have it.
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  #3  
Old 05-17-2006, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alk8944
He may be looking for the wrong thing, it is .401SL. The Old Western Scrounger, Buffalo Arms are two likely suspects to have it.

That's the two best sourses for .401WSL (Wnchester Self Loading)...and it is custome made, not real cheap.

I looked for years for a good example...nice enough to be a good shooter, but not so nice as to command a full collector's price. They didn't make a bunch of them, but their owners are very loyal....and from the little bit of hunting i did with the one i finallly found, it is a great short range deer killer.

Even though it's from 1910, is basically a semi-auto .44mag. carbine ballistic twin...if anything, a bit more "zip". IF you can reasonably hunt it with a .44mag. carbine, can hunt it with a .401WSL.
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  #4  
Old 05-18-2006, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alk8944
He may be looking for the wrong thing, it is .401SL. The Old Western Scrounger, Buffalo Arms are two likely suspects to have it.
Thanks, but it is listed as 401 WSL. http://www.ows-ammo.com/catalog/inde...sort/3a/page/4 He won't like the price!

I do thank you! I could not remember OWS name. Buffalo has them also. A few of us may get together and buy a box for him.

Last edited by jpattersonnh; 05-18-2006 at 05:13 AM.
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  #5  
Old 05-19-2006, 03:12 PM
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This is the cheapest supplier I have come across:

http://www.gadcustomcartridges.com/

Also, Cabela's offers it in their Obsolete Ammunition line.

I'm about ready to fireform some expanded and lathed 7.62x39 brass into 401 Winchester Self Loading, thanks to tips from Ribbonstone. Sweet handling rifles, as muzzle heavy and stable as can be. I might just take mine hunting this year, it was only a $175 reblue and glued-forearm pawnshop find.
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Last edited by RMH; 05-19-2006 at 03:26 PM.
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  #6  
Old 05-19-2006, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMH
This is the cheapest supplier I have come across:

http://www.gadcustomcartridges.com/

Also, Cabela's offers it in their Obsolete Ammunition line.

I'm about ready to fireform some expanded and lathed 7.62x39 brass into 401 Winchester Self Loading, thanks to tips from Ribbonstone. Sweet handling rifles, as muzzle heavy and stable as can be. I might just take mine hunting this year, it was only a $175 reblue and glued forearm pawnshop special.
They kill well. have a kind of short sharp "boom" when they go off, can ieaisly distinguish it on the firing line...don't know what it is that produces the different sound, but you'll find it true.

Keep it under 100yards and it's like the hammer of Thor.
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  #7  
Old 05-19-2006, 03:43 PM
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Well, I'm looking forward to taking mine back in the woods. Six notches on the half-pistol grip are evidence it's been there before.

Curious about the reputation the 401 WSL enjoyed way back when. The Winchester factory-loaded soft point was considered far superior to most other brands for it's excellent expansion, and was considered by more than a few to be suitable for grizzlies!

Also, I came across this little video - for those who haven't heard the Model 1910 speak:
http://www.aardvarkfirearms.com/aardvarkvideos.12.htm
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  #8  
Old 05-19-2006, 04:29 PM
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Now he says his Uncle has the 351 to match it. All I can say is Wow!
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  #9  
Old 05-19-2006, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpattersonnh
Now he says his Uncle has the 351 to match it. All I can say is Wow!

have had one of those as well...and liked it. Basically it's a a hot .357 carbine, tossing 180gr. bullets out at about 1800fps. Works for deer just fine, even though some writters (who I suspect have never shot one) dislike it.

Never understood how the same writter would praise the .357mag. carbine and then claim the .351 is "useless"...seems something is amiss...and I suspect they are just repeating tales told well before they were born and never really looked at the ballistics of the two rounds side by side.

Ammo for the .351 is also off the market, but was still being made into the early 1980's. Was a popular prison gurad gun, so ammo stayed in production years after the rifles were dropped.

The one I onwed was marked for Angola State Prison and had a 10 round magazine...but 5 rounders were standard.

Ammo can be made (with the help of a lathe) from .357max. cases.

Now compare the dimentions of the .38super and the .351WSL...except for length, are pretty close.
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  #10  
Old 05-19-2006, 08:07 PM
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I had a 1910 stolen in 2000 and need to replace it. I bought it in the mid '90s and the finish was gone and the stocks left a lot to be desired so I matte blued it, put on a brand new set of Fajen stocks and set it up with a 3x Weaver. Shot it some but only hunted with it a few times before it was stolen. I've got dies and a butt-load of ammo, brass {original and virgin Bell brass}, bullets etc. so I need to go ahead and find a replacement. I've got a .351 that escaped theft and I'm going to drag it out of the safe and hunt with it this year. I love those old rifles.
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  #11  
Old 05-20-2006, 07:37 AM
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I had a model 1910 that I sold a few months ago. When I bought it, it came with around 25 boxes of ammo ranging in age from the 1st box bought, right up to some Peters from the 1960;s (one box had 10 rounds missing and from the condition of the firearm I felt that this was all that had ever been fired through it since it looked like it was new). I might still have some sitting around here. I heard that there was someone custom loading in this cal but off the top of my head I can't remember who or where.
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  #12  
Old 06-09-2006, 06:38 PM
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I'm working on a M-1910 .401 WSL now, and doing a complete refin on it. Believe it or not, the fella' who brought it in said he found it on top of a cross rafter under a bridge! FOUND IT!!! Gee whiz! Don't some folks have ALL the luck!

I have an idea he's re-doing it so he can sell it, but there's a pretty fair chance he's wanting to keep it, too. I've done a lot of cleanup on it, far more than he's paying me for, and mainly, I'm trying to make sure a real authentic refin can be done on it some time in the future, or at least leave it as a real possibility. I just don't have the heart to let it leave the shop in a lesser condition. The stock was in pretty good shape, except for a lenthwise split in the forend. I did a pretty fair job on rejoining it. It's not too noticable, at least. It'll be hot blued, and the nickel steel receiver was "freckled" very badly on one side, but the pits weren't nearly as deep as I'd feared, so that cleaned up pretty well. Had to sand the receiver flats by hand so they'd be honestly flat, and believe it or not, got ALL the pits out. All in all, it's cleaning up pretty well.

One of the hard parts about gunsmithing AND being a gun nut is that sometimes, you just HAVE to do a lot more than you're being paid for just so you can sleep at night and not have your conscience nag you dreadfully. Worse things happen, though, and we've all seen some of those situations, so all in all, I guess I'll get over the minor personal problems, and just be glad it's going to be returned to duty.

As to making cases from 7.62x39's, I posted an inquiry on another forum, and was referred her by one of the posters on that forum. Does anyone have any info on the case head dia. of the .401? Somewhere in the misty past, I think (???) I recollect the .35 Rem. being too big, at .460" nominal, so I figured the 7.62x39 at .445" nominal in the head was a likely candidate. I'd really like to see the old gun shoot again. Can anyone elaborate on making cases for the .410? I'd really appreciate the info. Not sure if the old fella' who brought it in will make use of it, but these guns have always appealed to me, and I think they'd make a great cast bullet gun, too. If I do manage to find one and aquire it, I want to have this info copied off and available, since I like to shoot all the guns I have, rather than just tuck them away where even I won't enjoy them much.

Thanks for any info on making the cases.
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  #13  
Old 06-09-2006, 06:58 PM
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Other guy might have had a different way, but here's mine:

1. Size 7.65X39 case in a FL .41mag. die stripped of it's decapping assembly SET UP in the press by 1/2". Old style steel die is actually better for this. CANNOT size it all the way, can only size it to the soild head, so the die is adjusted DOWN by several tests until sizing become very difficult.
(Steel die works better becasue if you get gorrila with some carbide dies, will crack the carbide insert.)

2. Resulting case looks like a little belted mag. case. Lathe off the belt BUT NOT THE RIM! Resulting case is now somewhat rimmed (it's a small rim, but it's enough).

3. Fire form loads. Usually used a small charge of Red Dot (about 5gr.), compressed cream of wheat to totally fill the case, and a wad of wax to keep it from dribbling out. Use ONE cse as a test, adjusting powder charge until a fully blown out case results...then load up all the rest for fire forming. take my workd on it...just because 5.0gr. worked last time, the nw batch of cases may well take more or less to get there....how the cream of wheat is compressed makes a bid difference too....so expeiment with one case until you get it right rather than have 50 rounds on had that "almost" do the trick.

4. Resulting case is mighty close to the right length (1.5") but you'll still trim them to even them up...want whatever timmer setting it takes to end up with a smooth even case mouth.

HINTS:
1. NEW BRASS. Old brass is harder and tends to split more...besides, going to this much trouble with old used brass seems counter productive.

2. 7.62X39 cases can be found in either primer pocket size. So far as i can tell, it makes no difference which you use.

3. IF you have all the time in the world and can work carefully, COULD spin the cases from step #1 in a drill and file off the rim. Would be better with a drill press and some form of stud arranged to suport the case at the primer pocket while you file.

4. Good news: the shell holder needed for the cases above is the 7.62X39 shell holder, not the hard-to-find .401WSL shell holder.

------
MAY be able to find .414 cses (Dan Wesson made some .41super mags)...these will work with a trim and lathe work to reduce the rim to the right diameter (anc cutting an extractor groove).

-----
Used .41mag. dies to load. Does help to make (or reduce the issue one) expander .002-.003" or so for a tight bullet fit. Other than that, no problems. Just adjust the seater OUT in the press to make up for the extra length.
-----
Have tried all the suitiable powders...good old IMR 4227 is the best possible choice. The ball powders twins, 296/H110, tend to have the action open while pressure is still high enough to eject a blast of gas and sparks...2400 and faster build pressure too fast....H4227 or IMR 4227 seem to have just the right ballance. I mention this becasue the old 1910 is a BLOWBACK rifle...it ain't locked...so burning rate HAS to be ballanced to the opening of the action.

Last edited by ribbonstone; 06-09-2006 at 07:08 PM.
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  #14  
Old 06-09-2006, 08:01 PM
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Ribbonstone, thanks a bunch! Am copying and saving now. Yeah, I can only guess what the wrong powder would do in this gun. I'd really like to keep it that way, too.

You've just removed one of the primary reasons I haven't more actively sought a 1910 to date. Have a friend who'll likely be interested in this info, too. Thanks.
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Old 06-09-2006, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackwater
Ribbonstone, thanks a bunch! Am copying and saving now. Yeah, I can only guess what the wrong powder would do in this gun. I'd really like to keep it that way, too.

You've just removed one of the primary reasons I haven't more actively sought a 1910 to date. Have a friend who'll likely be interested in this info, too. Thanks.

One or two more tips.

BULLETS:
Some of the better jacketed .41mag. bullets can stand being sized down a bit...but others will suffer from jacket spring back (the lead core sizes down, but the jacket springs away from the core). Won't know until you try various bullets...but the modern Hornady worked fine.

My barrel wanted .408" bullets. Had a Lee type press mounted die made that would reduce them to that size.


In lead bullets, nver really got the combination of good accuracy and reliable functioning to work out. Could get one or the other, but not both. Think it can be done, I just never go to that magic cobination before Katrina ate the gun.

Complexity:

Try real hard NOT to take apart the recoil spring accembly. Can get to all the things you need to clean without...and it will fustrate the devil out of you getting it back in.
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Old 06-09-2006, 09:15 PM
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Thanks again, RS. Too late on the disassembly thing, though. Am doing commercial gunsmithing now, and needed to take it down completely. Takedown's no problem, but putting that spring back in IS going to be "interesting." Already tried once, just for a trial fit. Didn't go very easy, so forgot about the test fitting. Used a length of cleaning rod to help keep the spring confined, and that helped, but I needed to get on with the job, so will find out this week about just HOW much of a bee-eye-itch it's gonna' be. Luckily, I have another 'smith to help if needs be, but I suspect it's still not going to be "easy" by a LONG shot. I think I may have to try a very long rod through the recoil assembly, keeping the spring captive, then push that down, and then see if the other guy can keep the spring from squirting out the side, and if so, I ought to be able to put the rod in .... maybe. Any suggestions here are welcome. I think the factory had jigs for this.
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  #17  
Old 06-10-2006, 05:07 AM
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Suspect there is some trick or tool specific to the task, but whatever it is the last guy who knew it proably passed away 20 years ago. Like you, a way of keeping the spring captive /unkinked and the help of at least another pair of hands got a .351WSL back together....I refused to take the .401 fully apart.

For that one, I got it broken down...the barrel/reciver (without wood) was stuffed in a length of PVC pipe filled with solvent, and for a week would take it out each day and bristle-brush all the parts.
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  #18  
Old 02-05-2007, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moosepucky
I had a model 1910 that I sold a few months ago. When I bought it, it came with around 25 boxes of ammo ranging in age from the 1st box bought, right up to some Peters from the 1960;s (one box had 10 rounds missing and from the condition of the firearm I felt that this was all that had ever been fired through it since it looked like it was new). I might still have some sitting around here. I heard that there was someone custom loading in this cal but off the top of my head I can't remember who or where.
I recently bought a Winchester model 1910 401 SL, I would love to be able to purchase some period ammo for this gun. If you would consider selling any please e mail me at
[email protected] or call 734-320-5654
Thank You
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  #19  
Old 09-21-2007, 05:25 PM
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Making 401 cases,

I'm a new guy here,didn't know where to post this before,so bear with me if I wind up double posting this.
Here is a very simple way to make .401WSL cases out of 7.62x39mm Russian cases.I've made cases for all the WSL's for a great many years,and they havet a very good reloading life.
http://www.jouster.com/cgi-bin/castb...oframes;page=2

RayP.
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  #20  
Old 09-21-2007, 07:15 PM
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You'll be forgiven this time

Welcome to the forum. While we normally ask people to not double-post, it isn't a capital crime, and I'm sure a few people will get good use out of this information.
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