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  #1  
Old 08-31-2007, 03:49 AM
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308 vs 30-06 for elk & moose?


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Is there really any noticeable difference? Using the same 180 grain bullets, velocity is about 80 or 90 fps different . This means the effective range of the 308 is about 30 yards shorter. For actual hunting, is that significant? What do you consider to be the maximum range you would consider shooting a bull elk with those 2 cartridges?
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Old 08-31-2007, 05:22 AM
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Contrary to what many might say, those who live in those areas and hunt pick those cartridges first, and snicker at guys who bring the magnums. I'm not 100% sure I'd pick the 180's myself, preferring a bit more velocity, so I've dropped down to 165's...but I haven't been called to hunt elk yet, either.
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Old 08-31-2007, 07:04 AM
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I've been hunting elk here in Idaho for better than 45 years now and though lots are killed with both calibers I prefer the "snicker" magnums. Often today shots at longer ranges can be taken and both the 06 and 308 should be kept to ranges well under 300 yards.

Even the best intentioned shots can miss the sweet spot and when that happens more energy is better. My old hunting partner has used the 7mm Rem mag for better than 25 years with 175 grain bullets. I shot the fine 308 Norma mag with 180's and now use the 8mm Rem mag with 220's.

I have a 308 and a 280 Remington, but they do duty for deer hunting.

Perhaps I'm a Craig Boddington fan, but I've seen lots of wounded elk and between me and several of my hunting friends have put a bunch in the freezer together. There's nothing like trying to get a wounded elk out of the bottom of frying pan canyon before the meat spoils.

That perfect shot will kill like lightening every time, unless the elk happens to flinch, jump, bauble and then the fun begins. Take enough gun, elk are usually a once in a lifetime event and though can be killed with anything more gun has proven for me at least better.

Try digging one out of the bottom of this country and tell me how well the small caliber/energy bullets work.



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  #4  
Old 08-31-2007, 07:08 AM
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The difference between the 2 is meaningless..... There is nothing wrong with the 180 grain wieght in 30 Cal.... Infact it is my favorite wieght in my 300 Win and 30-06. The 180 placed properly will make short work of any Elk.....

Last edited by jwp475; 08-31-2007 at 07:10 AM.
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Old 08-31-2007, 08:13 AM
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Hey Bob, send more of those pix! Man, that is pretty, and you're right, I want to stake mine to the ground right where he was standing in that turf. Magnum heck, bazooka!
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  #6  
Old 08-31-2007, 08:16 AM
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Don't think you'll find a great difference between the two in effect on game.

Although my elk hunting days are over, in the day, I've used a 7 RM with 162 gr bullets, a 7x57mm AI with 175 gr bullets and a '06 with 180 gr bullets to take elk. All were one shot kills at standing broadside animals at ranges from 250 to 375 yds.

As Bob pointed out, be careful of the terrain when shooting at elk - when the animal drops, the work begins.
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  #7  
Old 08-31-2007, 08:30 AM
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Take a look at the bottom pic of Bob's. That's the kind of country I hunt in, and long shots are rare because it's so heavily timbered and brushy. You might be able to see a long way, but it's tough to see ELK a long way.

Anyway, I've carried both .308 and 30-06 for elk here in Idaho. Even though my handloads show a wider velocity gap than the 80-90 mentioned above, I can't see any difference in killing power at the ranges we shoot. If I were going to shoot much past 300 yards, I might want the 30-06 instead of the 308.

While I can't argue with Bob's choice of firepower - it is very effective - most hunters I come across here are carrying a 30-06, 308, or 30-30, the odd 300 Mag, plus some 270's. Anything else is a rarity.
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Old 08-31-2007, 05:33 PM
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Thanks guys. So I guess what I read is that there isn't a great deal of difference in performance on elk between the '06 and 308 and they will both do okay at shorter range, say 300 yards maximum with an '06, or 270 yards with a 308.
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  #9  
Old 08-31-2007, 05:46 PM
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Given those ranges and good shots you will be fine. As much as I tout the mags elk are not bullet proof, but they can be tough animal, especially a bull in rut.

I've got a friend whose wife has been plunking elk for lots of years with a 243 shooting hundred grain bullets. She mostly shot cows when it was legal and mostly took neck shots at no more than a hundred yards and was simply death on wheels with that strategy.

I never did have the heart to tell her that she simply couldn't kill elk with that little pop gun. Besides she would have laughed me out of the house.
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  #10  
Old 08-31-2007, 06:05 PM
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I've never (yet) hunted elk, but plenty of folks use both cartridges with great success. Common sense should tell you -- if you've got the same bullet at the same speed, you'll get the same result.
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  #11  
Old 08-31-2007, 06:56 PM
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I have shot and watched deer and elk shot with both and can tell no difference between the two.
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  #12  
Old 08-31-2007, 07:06 PM
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personally i'd choose whichever floats your boat, but... i'd put a 165 gr barnes xbt on top of it. out to 300 yards that will kill anything you ought to be shooting at with either one.(actually, probably a lot further)
energy is a slippery slope.... for every action there is an oppposite and equal reaction, so that being said, how many guys do you see being bowled over by all that "energy"?
don't get me wrong, the mags do hit harder, and there are a few of tham that i'm very fond of, but i think that the formula for showing their gains over the standard rounds is flawed. frankly i am quite fond of the 7mm rem mag, and will soon build a 300H&H. as much as i love my 338/06AI i am waiting to come across a deal on either an 8mm rem or a 340 weatherby. whichever one shows up first will come home with me. just the same, i don't expect any of them to kill any better at normal ranges. i like those particular magnums because the are effective and good, do i need them, no. are they any better inside 300 yds, absolutely not, in fact if you are a meat hunter go with the standard rounds or shoot X bullets. variety is said to be the spice of life and i guess when it comes to guns, i'm extra spicy.

Last edited by big dan; 08-31-2007 at 07:09 PM.
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  #13  
Old 09-01-2007, 08:36 AM
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big dan, I agree that FPE is a poor way to predict the wounding ability of different calibers.. Case in point the pictures below are of exit wounds in the off side rib cage of a large bull Elk...The first picture is a wound created by a 180 grain bullet fired from a 300 Win, with an impact velocity of aproximately 2600 FPS and this calculates to about 2700 FPE....






The next picture is a wound made by a 440 grain flat point hard cast bullet.With a velocity of 950 FPS for 880 FPE. This is the same Elk as the top picture..





Notice how much larger the wound is that was created by the round with the least amount of energy....

A picture of the Elk



Last edited by jwp475; 09-01-2007 at 08:38 AM.
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  #14  
Old 09-01-2007, 10:00 AM
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Bullet design is everything, as those who started using Partitions for everything soon learned, as the bullet kept flying after exit. I love the SST's on deer, but don't know if they'd be enough on elk. They open up huge holes in deer, and I'm inclined to think they'd do as well on elk, but never having hunted them, I don't know. Others do.
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  #15  
Old 09-01-2007, 10:19 AM
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I am a penetration kind of a guy therefore I prefer Partions to SST's,in fact I prefer TXS...The larger exit was created by a Flat point hard cast that does not expand and it went through the Elk and deep enough into the ground that I could not recover it with my hands...
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Old 09-01-2007, 10:24 AM
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Yeah, I'm a penetration guy, too. I've seen failure to kill humanely caused by under-penetration, I've never seen it from "over-penetration" (in quotes because I don't believe there is such a thing except in home defense situations...).

As long as the bullet damages vitals correctly, the critter will die.
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  #17  
Old 09-01-2007, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwp475
I am a penetration kind of a guy therefore I prefer Partions to SST's,in fact I prefer TXS...The larger exit was created by a Flat point hard cast that does not expand and it went through the Elk and deep enough into the ground that I could not recover it with my hands...
Some great comparrison pictures jwp...I've never shot anything with a flat point but I've been told they hit harder due to the meplat, I'm assuming the 440 grain was a 45-70? Too bad you couldn't find that bullet. I enjoy seeing what they look like after the fact.
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  #18  
Old 09-01-2007, 02:08 PM
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The 440 grain bullet was fired from a 500 JRH,infact the same load that MikeG uesd on his Bison..The efectivness is hard to believe until you have seen them in action....
I took the one with the 500 Linebaugh with one shot and complete penetration (bullet exited) a 525 grain hard cast flat point at 1100 FPS and 1164 FPE



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  #19  
Old 09-04-2007, 06:07 PM
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Well put "Mod"

Quote:
Originally Posted by faucettb
Given those ranges and good shots you will be fine. As much as I tout the mags elk are not bullet proof, but they can be tough animal, especially a bull in rut.

I've got a friend whose wife has been plunking elk for lots of years with a 243 shooting hundred grain bullets. She mostly shot cows when it was legal and mostly took neck shots at no more than a hundred yards and was simply death on wheels with that strategy.

I never did have the heart to tell her that she simply couldn't kill elk with that little pop gun. Besides she would have laughed me out of the house.
I had an elderly friend that loved elk hunting trips and the .250 Savage mod. 99 that he dispatched the critters with. He was a disciplined and deadly rifleman. And he poured a good scotch on the rocks to wash down his stories.
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  #20  
Old 09-04-2007, 07:33 PM
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just goes to show the importance of proper shot placement.
by the way jwp475, beauty of an elk, and buff.... congrats. in all honesty tho energy is purely b.s. but it was a way to sell hunters on new cartridges when the belted magnums came on line.
as far as mister ed's story goes, i'd love to have meet that old gent that he speaks of. so many of us forget that so very few "monster" whatever (elk, deer or whatever) are taken that the average cartridge will do fine. that is the only reason that the .243 survives!! in a nutshell, people need to forget about hyper velocity and worry more about bullet integrity and most importantly, shot placement.

Last edited by big dan; 09-04-2007 at 07:45 PM.
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