The web's most comprehensive user-interactive handloading database! Find the loading data created by handloaders, for handloaders, post your pet loads, or access and develop your own online loading database with our LoadNotes personal handloading database software. This feature, unique in its concept and intuitive in it's data presentation is fast to access, superbly organized and comprehensive in scope.Our online forums for questions and answers on many shooting and outdoor related topics. A dynamic, active, and well-informed resource for your enjoyment and interaction. Our most used resource on this website! Come share the experience with us!
» Advanced

Go Back   Shooters Forum > Rifle and Rifle Cartridges > Rifles and Rifle Cartridges
Register FAQ Members List Donate Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read



Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-15-2007, 10:06 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: New Brunswick, Canada
Posts: 270
.223 Rem for Coyote


Registered Users do not see the above ad.


I am in the market for a .22 cal riffle ideal for coyote and wolves out to 300 - 350 yds. It needs to be .22 cal as it is illegal to hunt small game in this part of Canada with anything larger.

My question is, would a rifle chambered in .223 be adequate to make a quick, humane kill on these types of dogs at that range?

Thanks,
Savage Hunter
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-15-2007, 11:27 AM
pruhdlr's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Edge of the swamps in NW Fla.
Posts: 1,619
You betcha. I lived in Maine,just 23 miles from the Quebec border for almost 20 years. There,for most of that time,I was a registered Maine Master Guide.

I started guiding bear,moose,and deer hunters. Later on I transitioned to coyote,crow,and photo takers. Frankly,I got tired of tracking wounded animals shot by a sport that couldn't hit his arse with both hands.

Our yotes were on the rather big side,as yours will be. A 50 pounder was not unusual. I killed quite a few that were 55 with "talk" of the 60+ pounders being out there. I also hunted wolves in Quebec up towards Montreal. In my time I killed 7. All were over 85 pounds. IIRC one was 110'ish.

To get to your question. The .223,properly loaded will hammer even the biggest wolf,and be kind to the pelt. My weapon of choice was a AR with a 24" bbl. The twist rate was 1:9. There were no bullets over 69gr back then and I shot all 55grainers out of the weapon. Nosler Balistic Tips. They shot great back then and still do outta the same weapon.

A plus for the AR is multiple quick shots. I had several yotes come in to a call and killed all (3) of them. The boom is coupled with the action so it is not as likely to spook the yotes. Most of the times that I killed doubles or triples,the unhit yotes would just stand there or run just a little ways off and stop to look. Too late,another bullet would be on it's way.

I have hunted yotes with a bolt gun before. You can't operate a bolt quite enough not to spook the remaining yotes. Beleive me I have tried. Plus,the undead of the group will not stand there very long. Just a few seconds at the very most.

I used to hunt over a frozen lake from the shoreline. I had a shooting bench that was brushed in with spruce and fir boughs. I would get a road kill deer and tow it out onto the ice with my snowmobile. Most of the time the distance would be 300+ yards. I found that if the yotes were that far away you could make more movements during mounting of the weapon or pouring another cup of hot coffee. The .223 always make a clean kill. At the extreme ranges your bullet will slow down enough so that it won't open up as quickly. You will get some exit wounds at the longer ranges. But that is ok,the yote or wolf is still dead.

A center of chest hit is mandantory. Especially with a wolf. But you got a big target.

All in all,I'd say that the .223 properly loaded and properly targeted is all you'll need for yotes or wolves.

Also,a good quality scope, that has an parallex ajustment, and the objective lens that is at least 50mm is important. As is the most power that you can get. I used a Leupold 6.5X20X50. You can always zoom back,but sometimes you find that more power would be better. Especially during the bright sunny days.

Good luck in your hunting. Let us know how it goes. -----pruhdlr
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-15-2007, 11:41 AM
IDShooter's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: North Idaho
Posts: 2,076
My experience is that the .223 will kill coyotes at those ranges, but doesn't do a great job of it. By 300 yards or so, the animals tend to flop around, spin, and run more than I like, even with good hits. I've never shot wolves, but I imagine they would be even tougher, and I'd think the .223 would be even more marginal on them.

I really like the .223 - it's economical and accurate - but I think it's out of its element at long ranges on bigger critters. The 22-250 would be my choice.
__________________
IDShooter

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." - Mark Twain
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-15-2007, 12:18 PM
M1Garand's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,241
It's ideal for coyotes but I'm not sure about wolves...they can weigh 150 lbs or so. I think it'd be borderline as ID said.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-15-2007, 02:16 PM
faucettb's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Peck, Idaho
Posts: 12,620
300 yards seems to be the working limit on the 223 for coyotes. When you throw wolves into the mix then I'd look at the 22-250 or the 243. Both of them excel once past the 300 yard mark.

If you haven't bought a gun yet then you have choices. If you already own a 223 then careful shot placement will help.

Good luck on your selection and let us know what you end up with.
__________________
Bob from Idaho
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-15-2007, 08:54 PM
JR1's Avatar
JR1 JR1 is offline
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 706
Let's see, the .223 in FMJ, mind you, is designed to kill men out to 600-800 yards, but can't kill a coyote which weights 1/5 at half that range? C'mon. And with better bullet choices?
__________________
If fishing involved firearms, I'd fish.

ĦA Dios!
JR
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-15-2007, 10:43 PM
faucettb's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Peck, Idaho
Posts: 12,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by JR1
Let's see, the .223 in FMJ, mind you, is designed to kill men out to 600-800 yards, but can't kill a coyote which weights 1/5 at half that range? C'mon. And with better bullet choices?
This is kind of a fallacy as our troops in the middle east are finding out. Along with that many of us whom have been in the coyote killing business for a number of years, 45 years for me, have tried fmj (full metal jacketed) bullets and found that you have many runoffs and wounded animals that you never recover. That's partly the reason so many states have outlawed fmj bullets. It's also the reason many varmint hunters with years of experience recommend cartridges with more energy for long range coyote hunting.

No offense meant JR, but the 223 just runs out of steam much past 300 yards for consistent kills on coyotes and when you start talking about wolves which can be double and triple that size, well most folks go the common sense route and use a cartridge with more energy available.

The 223 is a dandy varmint rifle and really shines when used within it's preferred killing envelope, but most of the folks I know use the 22-250 or 243 for longer ranges and bigger game than coyotes.
__________________
Bob from Idaho
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-16-2007, 03:58 AM
pruhdlr's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Edge of the swamps in NW Fla.
Posts: 1,619
THE(!) shot you wanna make on a yote,with a .223,is center of chest,cutting a rib going in,with a well make HP bullet going as fast as possible. With this hit you will get massive hydraulic shock and no exit wound.

A bullet of the FMJ design,up close will be going fast,if it clips any bone, going in or coming out,the bone will be a secondary missle that will come out taking a bunch of hide with it. A FMJ at the farther ranges will punch clean through and the yote will run. Depending on the terrain,if a yote runs for 5 seconds,you may never find him.

Now we are talking .223's. But any caliber up to the .243 using the 55gr bullets will do. I killed lots of yotes with my Swift. A .243 using your pet deer load will absolutely ruin a pelt. Some of the sports that I guided used all kinds of weapons to take yotes. Most would come with their deer rifles. That is fine if you simply want to kill the animal.

The .223 is the round that most pelt hunters in general use. For the bigger wolf you could try the 60gr. Nosler Partition or one of the higher weight HP's.

Me,I would continue to use my familiar load on wolves. I did this in Quebec and it worked fine. -----pruhdlr
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-16-2007, 04:28 AM
451Detonics's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Northern Indiana
Posts: 205
I would recommend moving up to a 22-250 if you are considering rifles other than a semi-auto. Ammo costs are not that different for hunting ammunition and it will give you longer range with a flatter trajectory and the added velocity means more terminal energy on target. Also the 22-250 has an excellent reputation for long range accuracy.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-16-2007, 08:46 AM
flashhole's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Owego, NY - USA
Posts: 2,974
Savage Hunter are you a handloader? pruhdlr makes a good point in his first post when he mentions the barrel twist. If you handload get a gun with a sufficiently fast twist that you can load the longer heavier bullets in 22 caliber.

My 22 cal is a 221 Fireball with a slow twist barrel, 1:14. That limits me to bullets 55 grains and under (great for the small cartridge) but I don't have the state imposed limit of 22 caliber so I can go to a bigger cal as needed.

I'm sure the 22-250 is a great cartridge it just never appealed to me. Again, if you handload there are some less popular choices between the 223 and 22-250 (222 Rem Mag comes to mind) that might get you where you want to be.
__________________
Remember - always have your democrats neutered or spayed - Ann Coulter
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-16-2007, 08:52 AM
MikeG's Avatar
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 26,944
My dad had to stick a coyote multiple times with a .223 at a range of nearly 300 yards. I was there (called it in, in fact), and watched the entire thing through binoculars.

Bullets were Sierras and they aren't too tough by any means.

We got it and it's still dead, but a far cry from the ones I've shot with a .30-06 and a .35 Rem that just deflated on the spot and never moved more than a wiggle or two.

Best of luck.....
__________________
MikeG

Quote:
Originally Posted by faucettb
Welcome to the forum. Rules are simple, be nice and join in.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-16-2007, 09:09 AM
coyote_243's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: various areas of pa
Posts: 471
I wish pa would let us use semi autos for varmits. The ar's make good varmit platforms. I'd get one is a second if I could hunt with them. They have the rails for mounting all kinds of options if you like night huntin. Match shooters have came up with awesome accuracy of these guns. Lets hope pa changes another law.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-16-2007, 09:23 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 2,256
Thier is about 230 fps difference at 300 yards between a 223 and a 22-250 with a 55 grain V-Max bullet and that amounts to an energy difference of 131 FPE the differenc of a 22 LR..Hardly Earth shattering for those that tout the major advantage of the 22-250 over the 223 at 300 yards
These figures were with a muzzle velocity of 3600 FPS for the 22-250 and 3300 FPS for the 223 and were computed at sea level
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-16-2007, 09:35 AM
M1Garand's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,241
I agree and if there's wolves in the mix I'm thinking the 243 Win is probably the best option here. You could always go with deer cartridges too.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09-16-2007, 09:39 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 2,256
A 243 is certainly and without a dought a significant step up..........
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 09-16-2007, 11:08 AM
m141a's Avatar
Nawth East Moderatah
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Madison, NH.
Posts: 5,362
I hit a Feral dog with a 223. It was at about 150 yards, and the gun was the Savage 10 tactical. Thne dogs were coming and attacking a friends chickens grazing in his yard.
The bullet was a 55 grain Winchester power point, seated over 25 grains of varget, in IMI brass.
The dog was dead from the shot, which hit just behind the shoulder and flattened him.
the bullet when recovered, mushroomed nicely, and only fragmented a bit. FMJ is for the military and targets, leave it home when you go hunting.
__________________
Chris in NH.

"some days, I wish my dogs could talk"
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 09-16-2007, 11:36 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: New Brunswick, Canada
Posts: 270
Just wanted to thank everyone for their responses. All the input is greatly appreciated.

I haven't made a purchase yet, but I'm probably going to get a .22-250 instead, no offence to anyone. I'd love to pick up a .243 (or use my .270), but as stated on my initial thread, it is illegal to hunt/shoot varmints and small game in my neck of the woods with anything .23 and larger.

There seem to be many .223 supporters, and comparing it to the .22-250 seems almost like comparing Coke to Pepsi. I am not a handloader, and many will argue that .22-250 factory loads posses only a marginal increase in velocity and energy. However, in Eastern Canada, due to the vast abundance of white tail deer and moose, our coyotes, coydogs, and coywolves are significantly larger than standard coyotes, and in many ways resemble small wolves moreso than coyotes. As a result, even a small increase in velocity and energy would personally be welcome. Also, I'm not even sure we can buy FMJ's here.

Again, thanks to everyone for their submissions.

Savage Hunter
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 09-16-2007, 02:10 PM
pruhdlr's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Edge of the swamps in NW Fla.
Posts: 1,619
Got a buddy that has a .223Ackley Improved. Has it chambered in a Bushmaster(AR) top and bottom with a high end 24" bbl.

It will keep right up with a .22-250 even shooting the >69gr bullets. I believe he shoots a 60grHP.

If I could build any .22cal for yotes,that would be it. -----pruhdlr
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 09-17-2007, 08:24 AM
IDShooter's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: North Idaho
Posts: 2,076
Quote:
Originally Posted by pruhdlr
Got a buddy that has a .223Ackley Improved. Has it chambered in a Bushmaster(AR) top and bottom with a high end 24" bbl.

It will keep right up with a .22-250 even shooting the >69gr bullets. I believe he shoots a 60grHP.

If I could build any .22cal for yotes,that would be it. -----pruhdlr
That Ackley may be a decent round, but there is no way it can match a 22-250 in actual, measured velocity unless it is loaded to higher pressures. Simple physics.

As I said before, for the uses stated, the 22-250 would be the better choice, in my opinion. That seems to be what Savage Hunter decided on, too. Smart man!
__________________
IDShooter

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." - Mark Twain
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 09-17-2007, 08:45 AM
Jim H's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 1,001
tis better to be slightly over gunned than undergunned. and you can always load the 22-250 down a tad to help preserve barrel life. either was a good choice in my book.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Recoil Threshold Limit? markkw Rifles and Rifle Cartridges 97 06-12-2010 07:12 PM
Mod 70 SA varmit .223 rem to .223 wssm coyote shooter Gunsmithing 3 12-04-2006 05:28 AM
mil spec 5.56 in .223 rem? patrickdennis Rifles and Rifle Cartridges 2 02-08-2005 07:37 PM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 09:22 PM.

< Contact Us - Shooters Forum - Archive >

 
 

All Content & Design Copyright © 1999-2002 Beartooth Bullets, All Rights Reserved
View Privacy Policy | Contact Webmaster | Legal Information
Website Design & Development By Exbabylon Internet Solutions
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2