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  #1  
Old 07-29-2008, 12:52 PM
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Quietest Calibre? (above .22)


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Hey All,

I have a weird one for ya...

I was wondering what the quietest calibre is? I'm looking at a stalking rifle, and want it to be as quiet as possible, with no moderator (silencer). Are there any calibres specifically aimed at low noise?

Thanks all,
_Kar.

PS: Above .22-250, please. it'll be for (small) deer.
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  #2  
Old 07-29-2008, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kareir View Post
Hey All,

I have a weird one for ya...

I was wondering what the quietest calibre is? I'm looking at a stalking rifle, and want it to be as quiet as possible, with no moderator (silencer). Are there any calibres specifically aimed at low noise?

Thanks all,
_Kar.

PS: Above .22-250, please. it'll be for (small) deer.
You might look into the 300 whisper, with subsonic loads, if you handload.
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  #3  
Old 07-29-2008, 03:17 PM
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You could probably come up with a heavy bullet load for a 357 carbine that would be fairly quiet. Something like a 200 gr cast using a fast burning powder driving the bullet at 950 fps or so. It would be for short range. The heavy bullet would still give some penetration. A 44 mag carbine with 300 grain cast bullets might also work. Thats what I would try if I wanted a quiet gun.
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  #4  
Old 07-29-2008, 03:34 PM
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The problem is killing game requries some power and anything that is supersonic will make noise. Your best bet is some kind of bow or crossbow if your really concerned about the noise.
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  #5  
Old 07-29-2008, 07:50 PM
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The .35 Rem works well (as does anything with a large bore area for the size of the case, and relatively low pressure).

What can you get in Ireland? That might be a better place to start the discussion.
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  #6  
Old 07-29-2008, 08:42 PM
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I have a 94 trapper with a 16'' barrel and shooting 250gr cast bullets at about 800-900 fps out of it seems about as loud as a 22 hornet with very little recoil. I would feel comfortable shooting deer-size game out to about 75 yds. with this combo. Normally for hunting I use a 300gr. bullet at over 1500fps, but you wanted quiet and this isn't it. I would think nothing would beat a pistol cartridge in a easy to carry rifle with a mild reload as long as shots are kept within 100yds. I would choose a 44mag,45colt or perhaps a 357mag. Dave
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  #7  
Old 07-29-2008, 09:06 PM
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45-70

Whooosh
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  #8  
Old 07-29-2008, 09:42 PM
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Depends if you can reload or not, and what kind of distances you are expecting to shoot. If you are only using factory ammunition, then you will have some challenges, but you might consider some of the smaller cased cartridges, such as the .25-35, .30-30, or the .357 Magnum.
If you can reload for it, then a heavy for calibre bullet that is just sub-sonic might be your answer. That is what the .300 Whisper does.
Cast bullets would be great for this. Something like a 180 grain Flat Nose cast bullet, in a .30-30, could be sub-sonic, or loaded to normal velocities (which would still be quieter than most other deer loads).
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  #9  
Old 07-29-2008, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kareir View Post
Hey All,

I have a weird one for ya...

I was wondering what the quietest calibre is? I'm looking at a stalking rifle, and want it to be as quiet as possible, with no moderator (silencer). Are there any calibres specifically aimed at low noise?

Thanks all,
_Kar.

PS: Above .22-250, please. it'll be for (small) deer.

How about the 300 Whisper. This round was devloped by JD Jones owner of SSK INdustries at the request of the Military as a low noise realitvely long range round for snipers. The round is design around the Sierra 240 grain SMK at a muzzle velocity below the speed of sound. Therefore their is no super sonic sound wave. I belive that this round would produce the results that you are looking for.
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  #10  
Old 07-29-2008, 09:56 PM
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I just bough a 300 Fireball, which is nearly identical to the 300 Whisper. It is designed to be quiet with the 220-240 gr bullets. The main problem would be the fact that Sierra's heavy matchking bullets aren't designed for hunting. Sierra warns you not to use them in their manual. So yes it would be quiet, but you might have a hard time finding proper bullets for hunting.
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  #11  
Old 07-30-2008, 03:33 AM
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low noise

I like the 300 Whisper/ Fireball idea. There are soft points available in the heavy weights. The problem, though, with using them at subsonic velocity may be expansion. Will a 220gr, RNSP expand reliably at 900fps? I don't know.
Pete
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  #12  
Old 07-30-2008, 03:49 AM
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Matchkings make good medium & thinskinned game bullets. The reson that sierra warns against them is because they are the choice round for military snipers and because of the geneva convention, snipers can't use bullets designed to expand or hunting type bullets. Now most of my tests have been done at velocities above 2000, so I can't speak for using them subsonically.

Last edited by coyote_243; 07-30-2008 at 03:51 AM.
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  #13  
Old 07-30-2008, 06:38 AM
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Guys I could be wrong but I don't think that reloading is legal in Ireland.
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  #14  
Old 07-30-2008, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coyote_243 View Post
Matchkings make good medium & thinskinned game bullets. The reson that sierra warns against them is because they are the choice round for military snipers and because of the geneva convention, snipers can't use bullets designed to expand or hunting type bullets. Now most of my tests have been done at velocities above 2000, so I can't speak for using them subsonically.

It is the Hague not the Genva Convention that covers munitions use. The United States was not apart of that accord, but has traditionaly respected the agreement.

  1. "During the period in which this review was conducted, the 180-gr. MatchKing (for which there is no military designation) also was tested with a view to increased accuracy over the M852 at very long ranges. Because two bullet weights were under consideration, the term "MatchKing" will be used hereinafter to refer to the generic design rather than to a bullet of a particular weight. The fundamental question to be addressed by this review is whether an open-tip bullet of MatchKing design may be used in combat. <?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:P></O:P>
  2. Legal Factors.

    The principal provision relating to the legality of weapons is contained in Art. 23e of the Annex to Hague Convention IV Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land of <?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = ST1 /><ST1ATE month="10" day="18" year="1907">18 October 1907
    </ST1ATE>, which prohibits the employment of "arms, projectiles, or material of a nature to cause superfluous injury." In some law of war treatises, the term "unnecessary suffering" is used rather than "superfluous injury." The terms are regarded as synonymous. To emphasize this, Art. 35, para. 2 of the 1977 Protocol I Additional to the Geneva Conventions of <ST1ATE month="8" day="12" year="1949">August 12, 1949
    </ST1ATE>, states in part that "It is prohibited to employ weapons [and] projectiles . . . of a nature to cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering." Although the U.S. has made the formal decision that for military, political, and humanitarian reasons it will not become a party to Protocol I, U.S. officials have taken the position that the language of Art. 35(2) of Protocol I as quoted is a codification of customary international law, and therefore binding upon all nations. The terms "unnecessary suffering" and "superfluous injury" have not been formally defined within international law. In determining whether a weapon or projectile causes unnecessary suffering, a balancing test is applied between the force dictated by military necessity to achieve a legitimate objective vis--vis suffering that may be considered superfluous to achievement of that intended objective. The test is not easily applied. For this reason, the degree of "superfluous" injury must be clearly disproportionate to the intended objectives for development and employment of the weapon, that is, it must outweigh substantially the military necessity for the weapon system or projectile. The fact that a weapon causes suffering does not lead to the conclusion that the weapon causes unnecessary suffering, or is illegal per se. Military necessity dictates that weapons of war lead to death, injury, and destruction; the act of combatants killing or wounding enemy combatants in combat is a legitimate act under the law of war. In this regard, there is an incongruity in the law of war in that while it is legally permissible to kill an enemy combatant, incapacitation must not result inevitably in unnecessary suffering. What is prohibited is the design (or modification) and employment of a weapon for the purpose of increasing or causing suffering beyond that required by military necessity. In conducting the balancing test necessary to determine a weapon's legality, the effects of a weapon cannot be viewed in isolation. They must be examined against comparable weapons in use on the modern battlefield, and the military necessity for the weapon or projectile under consideration. In addition to the basic prohibition on unnecessary suffering contained in Art. 23e of the 1907 Hague IV, one other treaty is germane to this review. The Hague Declaration Concerning Expanding Bullets of <ST1ATE month="7" day="29" year="1899">29 July 1899
    </ST1ATE>prohibits the use in international armed conflict:<O:P></O:P>
". . . of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core or is pierced with incisions."<O:P></O:P>

The <ST1:COUNTRY-REGION><ST1:PLACE>U.S.
</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGION>is not a party to this treaty, but <ST1:COUNTRY-REGION><ST1:PLACE>
U.S.
</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGION>officials over the years have taken the position that the armed forces of the <ST1:COUNTRY-REGION><ST1:PLACE>
U.S.
</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGION>will adhere to its terms to the extent that its application is consistent with the object and purpose of Art. 23e of the Annex to the Hague Convention IV, quoted above.

It is within the context of these two treaties that questions regarding the legality of the employment of the MatchKing "open tip" bullet must be considered. <O:P></O:P>
  1. <LI class=MsoNormal>Bullet Description.

    As previously described, the MatchKing is a boat tail, ogival spitzer tip bullet with open tip. The "open tip" is a shallow aperture (approximately the diameter of the wire in a standard size straight pin or paper clip) in the nose of the bullet. While sometimes described as a "hollow point," this is a mischaracterization in law of war terms. Generally a "hollow point" bullet is thought of in terms of its ability to expand on impact with soft tissue. Physical examination of the MatchKing "open tip" bullet reveals that its opening is extremely small in comparison to the aperture in comparable hollow point hunting bullets; for example, the 165-grain GameKing is a true hollow point boat tail bullet with an aperture substantially greater than the MatchKing, and skiving (serrations cut into the jacket) to insure expansion. In the MatchKing, the open tip is closed as much as possible to provide better aerodynamics, and contains no skiving. The lead core of the MatchKing bullet is entirely covered by the bullet jacket. While the GameKing bullet is designed to bring the ballistic advantages of a match bullet to long range hunting, the manufacturer expressly recommends against the use of the MatchKing for hunting game of any size because it does not have the expansion characteristics of a hunting bullet.

    The purpose of the small, shallow aperture in the MatchKing is to provide a bullet design offering maximum accuracy at very long ranges, rolling the jacket of the bullet around its core from base to tip; standard military bullets and other match bullets roll the jacket around its core from tip to base, leaving an exposed lead core at its base. Design purpose of the MatchKing was not to produce a bullet that would expand or flatten easily on impact with the human body, or otherwise cause wounds greater than those caused by standard military small arms ammunition. <O:P></O:P> <LI class=MsoNormal>MatchKing performance.

    Other than its superior long range marksmanship capabilities, the MatchKing was examined with regard to its performance on impact with the human body or in artificial material that approximates human soft tissue. It was determined that the bullet will break up or fragment in some cases at some point following entry into soft tissue. Whether fragmentation occurs will depend upon a myriad of variables, to include range to the target, velocity at the time of impact, degree of yaw of the bullet at the point of impact, or the distance traveled point-first within the body before yaw is induced. The MatchKing has not been designed to yaw intentionally or to break up on impact. These characteristics are common to all military rifle bullets. There was little discernible difference in bullet fragmentation between the MatchKing and other military small arms bullets, with some military ball ammunition of foreign manufacture tending to fragment sooner in human tissue or to a greater degree, resulting in wounds that would be more severe than those caused by the MatchKing. [FNaaa1]

    Because of concern over the potential mischaracterization of the M852 as a "hollow point" bullet that might violate the purpose and intent of the 1899 Hague Declaration Concerning Expanding Bullets, some M852 MatchKing bullets were modified to close the aperture. The "closed tip" MatchKing did not measure up to the accuracy of the "open tip" MatchKing.

    Other match grade bullets were tested. While some could approach the accuracy standards of the MatchKing in some lots, quality control was uneven, leading to erratic results. No other match grade bullet consistently could meet the accuracy of the open-tip bullet. <O:P></O:P>
  2. Law of War Application.

    From both a legal and medical standpoint, the lethality or incapacitation effects of a particular small-caliber projectile must be measured against comparable projectiles in service. In the military small arms field, "small caliber" generally includes all rifle projectiles up to and including .60 caliber (15mm). For the purposes of this review, however, comparison will be limited to small-caliber ammunition in the range of 5.45mm to 7.62mm, that is, that currently in use in assault or sniper rifles by the military services of most nations.

    Wound ballistic research over the past fifteen years has determined that the prohibition contained in the 1899 Hague Declaration is of minimal to no value, inasmuch as virtually all jacketed military bullets employed since 1899 with pointed ogival spitzer tip shape have a tendency to fragment on impact with soft tissue, harder organs, bone or the clothing and/or equipment worn by the individual soldier.

    The pointed ogival spitzer tip, shared by all modern military bullets, reflects the balancing by nations of the criteria of military necessity and unnecessary suffering: its streamlined shape decreases air drag, allowing the bullet to retain velocity better for improved long-range performance; a modern military 7.62mm bullet will lose only about one-third of its muzzle velocity over 500 yards, while the same weight bullet with a round-nose shape will lose more than one-half of its velocity over the same distance. Yet the pointed ogival spitzer tip shape also leads to greater bullet breakup, and potentially greater injury to the soldier by such a bullet vis--vis a round-nose full-metal jacketed bullet. (See Dr. M. L. Fackler, "Wounding Patterns for Military Rifle Bullets," International Defense Review, January 1989, pp. 56-64, at 63.)

    Weighing the increased performance of the pointed ogival spitzer tip bullet against the increased injury its breakup may bring, the nations of the world-- through almost a century of practice--have concluded that the need for the former outweighs concern for the latter, and does not result in unnecessary suffering as prohibited by the 1899 Hague Declaration Concerning Expanding Bullets or article 23e of the 1907 Hague Convention IV. The 1899 Hague Declaration Concerning Expanding Bullets remains valid for _expression of the principle that a nation may not employ a bullet that expands easily on impact for the purpose of unnecessarily aggravating the wound inflicted upon an enemy soldier. Such a bullet also would be prohibited by article 23e of the 1907 Hague IV, however. Another concept fundamental to the law of war is the principle of discrimination, that is, utilization of means or methods that distinguish to the extent possible legitimate targets, such as enemy soldiers, from noncombatants, whether enemy wounded and sick, medical personnel, or innocent civilians. The highly trained military sniper with his special rifle and match grade ammunition"
The above information was copied from this web site, http://www.blackfive.net/main/2006/0...ag_bans_e.html Thge above is a partial of the complete write up

There is more info here, http://www.blackfive.net/main/2006/0...ns_legal_.html

Any one interested can check out the above web sites
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  #15  
Old 07-30-2008, 07:49 AM
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Any one interested can go here,

http://www.defensiveedge.net/Videos/video.htm

There are videos of game taken with the 338 300 grain SMK
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  #16  
Old 07-30-2008, 10:13 AM
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Mike has a good question - IS reloading legal in Ireland?
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  #17  
Old 07-30-2008, 12:04 PM
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Thanks for the replies..

Firstly, Reloading IS NOT legal in ireland (yet :P). Currently it's illegal to hold any explosive substances, and while our Firearms bill is a mess, the explosives bill is worse. It'll takea while to sort it out, unfortunately.

Secondly, the largest calibre you could get, with the standard Firearm application form, is
.308. I'm looking at a bolt action rifle, or a single shot, but no levers/pumps/semi-autos. It's hard enough convincing local Gardai (I.e. The police) to allow normal rifles.

Thirdly, When you (Jwp475) say the Whisper was designed for "realitively" long range, what does that actually mean in reality? maximum effective range of .. 200 yards? 100? 50?

Fourthly, is the .300 Whisper available factory loaded, and does anyone chamber rifles in it?

Thanks all,
_Kar.
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  #18  
Old 07-30-2008, 12:43 PM
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If you start a 240 grain SMK with a .711 BC at 1050 FPS from the 300 Whisper it is still going 821 FPS at 1000 yards. Losing only 229 FPS along the way. That data is for 59 degrees at barometric pressure of 29.53 with 78% humidity.
The efective range IMHO is how ever for you can put the bullet on target.
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  #19  
Old 07-30-2008, 03:59 PM
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Corbon is the only company I am aware of that makes factory loaded Whisper. I believe last time I looked they loaded a 125gr and 220gr Sierra bullet. With the high BC the bullet the round keeps a lot of its energy, but the fact that most loads aim for around 1050 for subsonic means that you will still have quite a lot of drop past 300 yards. For longer shooting you would really have to use a drop chart and pay close attention to it. If I end up hunting with mine I will probably go with the lighter 125gr bullets that I loaded to about 2180fps.
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  #20  
Old 07-30-2008, 06:49 PM
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I had an Encore barrel made up that is kind of a rimmed .300 Whisper. It uses a 32-20 case for .308 instead of .312 bullets. My sole purpose was to achieve a high power to noise ratio (whatever that is). I learned: 1) must use a fast twist barrel to stabilize long, heavy subsonic bullets, or else bullet design becomes a bit moot. 2) all else being equal, a longer barrel is quieter. 3) quiet = subsonic 4) smallest powder charges that will still get 1050-1100 fps seem best (for being quiet).
This from observation without measuring equipment, so falls under "opinion". So far, I believe this contraption is at its best with a 200gr.+ slug at subsonic velocity for taking deer size game. Roundnose slugs seem good. Frontal area mushrooms ok and penetration has been good on mule deer. Observed killing power on only three deer seems to be close to a .44 with LBT slugs. Still learning as I go, so opinions subject to modification in future.
I believe J.D. Jones already learned most of this years ago, so nothing new from me. The 300 Whisper is factory loaded and SSK Industries will chamber it in almost any gun for you.
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