This Woodsmaster rifle was designed by John Moses Browning. According to Remington factory source, it was built in 1949. This Remington 81A is built very sturdy and never jams or malfunctions. Yet Remington dropped this model before I was born for unknown reason(s). Seems like it could make a comeback as limited edition if marketed properly.

Chambered for 300 Savage, it's ballistically similar to .308 and 30-06 out to about 175 yards or so. Beyond this distance, the old 300 can't keep up with the faster cartridges.

Without a modern scope sight, my middle-aged eyeballs are at a significant disadvantage. Yet, I can keep 5 shots into a white paper plate at 100 yards. Does anyone know why this well built take down rifle was dropped from production?

TR

Man that rifle brings back memories. The LA State Police still issued those to troopers when I started work in 1972. They soon discontinued issuing them and let the troopers who had them buy them for $10. Unfortunately I was not issued one.....

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A truely successful life is mostly based on how well you handle PLAN B.

wasn't this the type of rifle that Hamner used to shoot Bonny and Clyde?

And I think this is where Kalisnikov got his idea for a safety lever for the AK 47.

Given its good condition, it looks like you've got a collector's item there? I know its lines look like a J. M. Browning design, but Remington's web site says the designer was one C.C. Loomis.

55,581 were made, so its not a rarity, but that's also not a big number for fourteen years of production, so its value will depend on how many others were kept in good shape? And those production numbers may answer part of your question as to why it was discontinued? It just never sold enough.

Additionally, all the cartridges the 81 variants were chambered for (.30 Rem, .32 Rem, .35 Rem, and 300 Savage) run in the 35,000 cup to 46,000 cup maximum pressure range. The mechanism is probably unsuitable for .30-06 levels of pressure and higher, and such cartridges were being popularized by the likes of Townsend Whelen during its time. The availability of surplus '06 between the WW's and after, probably also influenced that trend.

As further evidence of pressure range being a factor, I would note that the Remington 742 (1960-1980), which was also called a Woodmaster, could handle the higher pressure rounds. It sold about 25 times more copies than the 81 variants during its life. It also had a 20 year production life instead of just 14 years, but even when adjusted for average per annum sales, the 742 did 17.5 times better. So, I think they just considered the design obsolete and inadequate for the kinds of cartridges American hunters were favoring when it was dropped.

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Nick

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"First contemplation of the problems of Interior Ballistics gives the impression that they should yield rather easily to relatively simple methods of analysis. Further study shows the subject to be of almost unbelievable complexity." Homer Powley

unclenick,

It is a Browning design! Modifications to the basic design which changed it from the Model 8 to Model 81 may have been the work of Loomis, but the basic design was by J.M. Browning.

The rifle was originally manufactured by F.N. in Belgium beginning in 1906, just like many other of Browning's. Their license was for sales other than the United States and shortly later, 1908, Remington purchased the rights to manufacture the rifle for U.S. sales.

Not only was the rifle designed bu Browning, but the original chambering was an original cartridge also designed by Browning, what we call .35 Remington, which pre-dated the purchase of manufacturing rights for the rifle by Remington. Why then is it called .35 Remington? Good question!

Very nice rifle, never seen one that slick! Who did the skin? Chamois?

Alk8944,

That explains why it looks like a Browning. I assumed from Remington's information it was a knock-off of Browning's basic work by Loomis (and to the extent it was a modification of Browning's design, I suppose it was). Do you know if Remington made anything based on that design before 1936?

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Nick

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"First contemplation of the problems of Interior Ballistics gives the impression that they should yield rather easily to relatively simple methods of analysis. Further study shows the subject to be of almost unbelievable complexity." Homer Powley

The Remington Model 8 came out in 1906 and the Model 81 looks very much like the Model 8. The 81 may be a bit stronger, as the .300 Savage is loaded to higher pressure than any of the Model 8 cartridges and the .35 Remington does have a reputation for battering the Model 8 if it's loaded hot. The .35 Remington was introduced in 1906 along with the Model 8 rifle. Remington credits Browning and Loomis for the Model 8.

BTW, what was the predecessor of the .35 Remington? It would be a 9x48 or 9x49 in Europe, but I've never seen it listed.

http://www.remington.com/library/his...re/model_8.asp

Bye
Jack

Well, I had about four times this much as an addendum but lost it before it was saved! What a pain. Here is the text of the Wikipedia article on the Model 8 which answers your question:

"The Remington Model 8 is a centerfire recoil-operated, self-loading rifle designed by John Browning and produced by Remington Arms beginning in 1906.
John Browning. He was granted U.S. Patent 659,786 on October 16, 1900 for the rifle, which he then sold the patent to Remington.

The rifle is recoil-operated operated and uses a rotating bolt and barrel which moves rearward inside a full-length jacket which also contain the recoil spring. It has a fixed 5-shot magazine and bolt hold-open device which engages after the magazine is empty. It is a takedown design, meaning that the barrel and receiver are easily separated with no tools, allowing for a smaller package for transport. Remington created four new calibers for the Model 8 rifle: .25 Remington, .30 Remington, .32 Remington and .35 Remington. These cartridges were rimless designs to allow reliable feeding from box magazines.

In 1936, C.C. Loomis introduced a slightly modified version of the Model 8, the Model 81. This rifle was also offered in .300 Savage and the .25 Remington was dropped."

Remington manufactured aprox 80,000 Model 8 rifles before it as modified to the Model 81. From 1936 to 1950 there were 69% as many Model 81s made as Model 8s during the first 30 years of production. I have to admit my memory failed me in that FN production started in 1900 or '01 and Remington in 1906 not 1908.

The real reason the Model 81 was discontinued had nothing to do with it's ability to handle high pressure cartridges, it is just as strong as a bolt action (which internally it really is!), but it would not handle cartridges longer than what it was chambered for and the .30-06 class were in most demand. Semi-automatics and slide guns have always appealed to a limited market so sales of these was always less than bolt and lever actions. Post WWII was a time, just like now, when cost was a great consideration and the Model 8/81 series, just like many other very fine firearms in the past, was just too expensive to produce. They could not be sold for the prices that would be necessary to justify their continuation, just like the Remington Model 30 series was cheapened through use of tubing, stampings, etc. to the 721/722/700 series still in production.

For other examples think of the Colt 1903 Hammerless, Winchester Models 1886 and 1892, pre-64 Winchesters of all types. Even earlier models that have continued in production have been cheapened (sometimes quality, always production costs) by use of plastic parts, castings, stampings, MIM parts and CNC. Some are improvements, but all reduce production costs. The Models 8/81 design does not lend itself to much to reduce cost except CNC, and then there still would be a small market. They would have to sell in the $1,000 range and still use unpopular cartridges. All the cartridges they were chambered for are obsolete except .35 Rem. and .300 Savage, and neither of these is exactly a barn-burner. .30 Rem. does remain in extremely limited production, for now, but is for practical purposes dead.

The shame is that all the cartridges for these guns were excellent, just not in great demand thanks to our gun-writers that have to hype everything new and improved(?) to the detriment of the older and proven.

Next time, before making a sweeping statement about something like this take a few moments to do a little research. It literally took 15-20 seconds to locate the Wikipedia article.

I was quoting Remington's own history statement. Sorry if they got it wrong. I've found so many errors in Wikipedia entries in the past that I don't consider it a primary source, and I always try to remember to caution when I post a quotation from Wikipedia with a qualifying "if it is accurate".

It appears I was correct that lack of sales was a factor, and that lack of cartridge selection was a factor in lack of sales. I don't know how the action would have handled higher pressure rounds of the right length for it? There are certainly plenty of those around today, though perhaps not many then. If the original model 8 was battered by the .35 Remington, it seems reasonable to expect its stepchild would have some analogous limits.

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"First contemplation of the problems of Interior Ballistics gives the impression that they should yield rather easily to relatively simple methods of analysis. Further study shows the subject to be of almost unbelievable complexity." Homer Powley

The was a discussion about reloading the .35 Remington for the Model 8 some years ago. The advice was to stop at 36.0 grains of IMR 3031 powder with 200 grain bullets, instead of the current IMR max of 37.5 grains. This almost gets to 2000 fps, which is about what the current factory loads do.

Bye
Jack

I had one of these guns chambered in 35 rem that I bought from MikeG. My brother fell in love with it's ease of use and style that it was gifted to him last Christmas...

Great gun.

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Chris in NH.

"some days, I wish my dogs could talk"

Thanks for the info. I was able to view the original model 8 that was featured in all those old Remington illustrations and ads. Perhaps you've seen those ads which show an outdoors man reaching for his model 8 whilst a great bear is closing in. This rifle is at the Wythe Museum & Gallery in Chester County, Pennsylvania.

My 81 does not have heavy recoil. Hand loaded 300 Savage cases with 165 grain Sierra ProHunter bullets shoot quite well at typical forest & foothill distances.

Seems to me that Remington could produce a profitable limited edition using stamped, cast, and machined parts. This rifle could even be slightly re-designed for simplicity.

TR