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  #1  
Old 02-28-2010, 05:01 PM
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358 Winchester - dual purpose loads


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Hi Gents,

I should be drawing a mule deer tag this fall and also hope to draw a cow elk tag. This year I plan to attempt developing a good load for my BLR 358 and hope to be able to use the same load for both species. A couple of years ago I tried, in vane, to develop a good 225 gr load for elk. The Barnes TSX is just too long to use with the powders I used, with bullets backing out due to the compressed charges in the limited case capacity. I have been thinking about trying again, this time with Nosler Partition loads. A 225gr Partition should be a bit shorter than the copper TSX. Will probably have to change powders too since I just couldn't get enough H4198 in the case to reach the velocity I was looking to reach. Shot opportunities could be between 0 and 250 yards...such is the terrain where I plan to hunt. I could back off to 200gr bullets but fear penetration might not be enough at angled or longer ranges for the elk. The 225 Partition might be too touch for mule deer.

Do any of you have experiece with the 358 with 200 or 225gr bullets? This is a fun part of the hunt. If push comes to shove I'll just use a Hornady 200gr for deer and the 225gr Partition for elk. But working up one load would be preferable due to time constraints.

Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 03-01-2010, 02:38 AM
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Try the 225 Sierra. At 358 velocities it should work well for deer, and still handle any elk you'll run across. Stick to faster powders like 3031, 4064, 4895, Rel-10 and you should see about 2300 FPS.
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  #3  
Old 03-01-2010, 04:41 AM
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Bart,

I can't exactly answer that question for you, but if you read through the entire thread listed here: http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/i...ic,7180.0.html -- You should find the answer that works best for you.

That is an EXHAUSTIVE study of 35 caliber bullets, at a variety of velocity ranges. I used it when choosing a bullet for a 35 caliber wildcat I'm working with and I've been very happy with the results. What I gathered, in reading that long post, is that the original, 200gr Remington Core-lokt PSP (pointed soft-point), at anything below magnum velocity, does a superb job expanding well, but holding together. If I were the lucky dog with a mule deer tag AND a cow elk tag, I don't think I would look any further. I'm pretty sure you can buy it as loaded ammo, from Remington, in case you decide not to handload for it.

The only other bullet that I would give serious consideration to, though it costs a good deal more, is the 200gr FTX, from Hornady. It is also constructed for low-to-medium velocity cartridges and, despite being designed for tubular magazines, should perform very well out of your BLR.
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  #4  
Old 03-01-2010, 11:21 AM
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I had difficulty in getting decent velocities with the Sierra 225 grain BTSP, as most powders ending up being heavily compressed; just as you have found with the bullets you mentioned.
I would suggest the Speer 220 grain FN as possible option. Good bullet weight, shorter than the Partitions, and at .358 Win velocities, should perform very well on both deer and elk.
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  #5  
Old 03-01-2010, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al_sway View Post
I had difficulty in getting decent velocities with the Sierra 225 grain BTSP, as most powders ending up being heavily compressed; just as you have found with the bullets you mentioned.
I would suggest the Speer 220 grain FN as possible option. Good bullet weight, shorter than the Partitions, and at .358 Win velocities, should perform very well on both deer and elk.
They just won't retain velocity quite as well and didn't show good expansion qualities, in the review posted above.
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  #6  
Old 03-01-2010, 01:52 PM
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That test is a great read, I think I actually have it in PDF or word format somewhere. Broom_jm, keep in mind though that test is with a 35 Rem at 2200 fps. The 358 should be able to do a good 250+ more fps so expansion should look like that 50 yard shot out to 150 or so yards. That said, I've not gotten great accuracy yet with the 220 (and with Speer generally as I have with other makers). I have with the 180, but working with the 220, so far Varget has done the best. It and IMR 3031 have both given mid 2400 fps but I need to work more with 3031.

Another to consider is TAC. John Barsness got 2550 fps with it and the 225 Sierra in a Hawkeye, so you should be able to get 2450-2500 fps with 220-225 bullets. I've done ok with the Sierra and but I need to work more with it. I've also gotten around 2400 or so fps with the 225 TSX with H4895 and N135. But this was before the 200 so I think that would be a better option and probably as good as a 225 C & C bullet. Barsness got 2750 fps with it and TAC so that would be a great bullet. In the BLR with 225s, I like the Partition and the AB. I've not shot the Partition but I think it may be one of the better ones in that weight. I would like to try the AB, but I don't know if I want to drop $30+ to find out it's too long. It would be nice to have more 225 options, like maybe some SP's by Hornady, Speer, or even a Core Lokt. IMO, the best all around weight, but the 200 TSX at Barsness' speeds sounds like it may be a good option as well.
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Old 03-01-2010, 02:03 PM
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What impressed me most about that read was how the testing was done at several different distances, essentially duplicating higher muzzle velocity, at longer range. The 200gr Core-lokt PSP showed excellent expansion characteristics under all conditions, and with its somewhat shorter length, might be a better choice in the BLR than the 225 options. I can't wait to try it in the wildcat I'm shooting, although right now I'm using the 180gr Hornady SSP.
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  #8  
Old 03-01-2010, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M1Garand View Post
That test is a great read, I think I actually have it in PDF or word format somewhere. Broom_jm, keep in mind though that test is with a 35 Rem at 2200 fps. The 358 should be able to do a good 250+ more fps so expansion should look like that 50 yard shot out to 150 or so yards. That said, I've not gotten great accuracy yet with the 220 (and with Speer generally as I have with other makers). I have with the 180, but working with the 220, so far Varget has done the best. It and IMR 3031 have both given mid 2400 fps but I need to work more with 3031.

Another to consider is TAC. John Barsness got 2550 fps with it and the 225 Sierra in a Hawkeye, so you should be able to get 2450-2500 fps with 220-225 bullets. I've done ok with the Sierra and but I need to work more with it. I've also gotten around 2400 or so fps with the 225 TSX with H4895 and N135. But this was before the 200 so I think that would be a better option and probably as good as a 225 C & C bullet. Barsness got 2750 fps with it and TAC so that would be a great bullet. In the BLR with 225s, I like the Partition and the AB. I've not shot the Partition but I think it may be one of the better ones in that weight. I would like to try the AB, but I don't know if I want to drop $30+ to find out it's too long. It would be nice to have more 225 options, like maybe some SP's by Hornady, Speer, or even a Core Lokt. IMO, the best all around weight, but the 200 TSX at Barsness' speeds sounds like it may be a good option as well.

Another Ramshot powder is X-Terminator. I got better results w/ this powder than w/ TAC.
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Old 03-02-2010, 01:36 AM
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I'll have to try that, I do have some on hand I bought for my 223, which so far has worked better then TAC with the 36 grn Barnes VG's.
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Old 03-02-2010, 02:43 AM
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I my Savage 99 in 358, I use the 200 grain Hornady RN for deer. At 2400+ fps it works quite well, but I don't know if Id use it on elk. That's why I recommended the 225 Sierra. I get over 2200 with Speer 250 grain Hot-Cors, so that too could be a option if you really want to drive a bullet from stem to stern on any mule deer or elk.
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  #11  
Old 03-02-2010, 07:41 AM
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I used a load of 48gr of Varget and a 225gr Sierra for deer one year and got excellent performance out of the rifle. I was probably a hair under 2400. Right now, I am working with some Speer 250gr Hot Cor's and AA2520. I am going to try TAC, H4895, Xterminator, and AA2520 with either the 225gr Sierra again or the 225gr Nosler Partition. I wouldn't worry about the Nosler Expanding. They will expand pretty good right down to 1800FPS. I would like to get 2400+ out of my 358, for the same purpose as you, I want a dual purpose deer and elk load. Good luck. Scotty
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Old 03-02-2010, 08:01 PM
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Thanks for the comments. For the record, that was H4895 not H4198 I was using with the 225 TSX. These cost me about $0.85 each back then...not rock bustin' bullets. I did a little looking at Midway and realized that the AccuBond is available in 225gr but is a boattail...might increase odds of a repeat of the case capacity problem but might increase range a little. A also noted the 200 Hornady FTX bullet might be a good choice as was pointed out by another poster. And the 200gr TSX too. I'll have to think about this somemore...all part of the fun. Before shelling out $80+ for bullets to work up loads I'll need to do some research. Might wait to see the results of the draw before getting too far into it $$ wise.

I've used the Speer 220gr in my 94 356 Win and it shoots good. Just doesn't have the aerodynamics a spitzer would. The 180gr Speer flat barks in that rifle but might not have the sectional density I want.

I'm starting to think a 35 Whelen in a Rem 7600 might be a better all around woods/open range shooter for mixed bag mule deer and elk. But I love this BLR and want to take it hunting this year. A short, handy rifle is so easy to carry and a lot quieter in thick cover. Didn't they chamber the Ruger Hawkeye in 358 a year or two ago?
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Old 03-03-2010, 01:31 AM
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They still do chamber it in the Hawkeye. If you look up one of the members, beartracker, he has one and has several posts on it and loads he worked, including the AB, but his magazine is longer then the BLR's. It may work, but who knows due to length restrictions. I also think the 225 Sierra is a good one to look at, it should be suited well with the 358 and BLR. I have seen on a different forum some questioning the toughness of this bullet on elk, but IIRC, they had core separations but got them from a dead elk....so I figure, for every bullet out there, someone will say they've had a negative exp. with it, until I actually do, I take it with a grain of salt. I've had great results with Sierra's so far so I plan on getting another box and working more with it in my BLR. I would also like to work with the Partitions and 200 TSX.
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Old 03-03-2010, 02:41 AM
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The Hawkeye is available in the Whelen too. As far as the 220grain Speer FN go, run their BC thru a ballistic program and you may find that out to 300 yds you may not be giving up as much as you think. Speer's FN bullets tend to be quite aerodynamic compared to other FN bullets.
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Old 03-03-2010, 08:57 AM
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It is interesting how different people can take away different impressions from the same report. As I read the report, there was nothing wrong with the 220 gr Speer. It expanded properly at all tested ranges and was accurate. As has already been pointed out, the .358 Winchester should boost the starting velocity.
My personal results with the 220 grain Speer (not comprehensive) was a good pass through on a broadside deer at 150 yards, and good indications of expansion without excessive damage. Works for me.
As for streamlining, check the difference in bullet drop between the FN and others. I suspect the matter of a couple of inches at 300 yards really doesn't mean that much.
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Old 03-03-2010, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by al_sway View Post
It is interesting how different people can take away different impressions from the same report. As I read the report, there was nothing wrong with the 220 gr Speer. It expanded properly at all tested ranges and was accurate. As has already been pointed out, the .358 Winchester should boost the starting velocity.
My personal results with the 220 grain Speer (not comprehensive) was a good pass through on a broadside deer at 150 yards, and good indications of expansion without excessive damage. Works for me.
As for streamlining, check the difference in bullet drop between the FN and others. I suspect the matter of a couple of inches at 300 yards really doesn't mean that much.
I guess I didn't see anything "wrong" with the 220gr Speer, either, although the author stated he didn't consider it the best choice for deer or ranges over 200 yards. From what I read, and from the graphical results shown, the 200gr Core-lokt PSP just looked better. Now, that isn't a safe bullet for tubular magazines, I don't think, but that's not a problem for the BLR. The extra velocity of the 358 Win. (over the 35 Rem) might make the 220 perform even better than the results shown, but for a bullet that will do the job at longer ranges on deer and still have the energy to harvest a cow elk, cleanly, I was more impressed with the 200gr Core-lokt PSP bullet.
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Old 03-03-2010, 12:43 PM
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The 220 Speer will definately do the job. The difference will be around 150-200 fps less at 300 yards with about 2" more drop compared to the Sierra or Partition. But the Speer should be a good hard hitter, it's another I need to work with more. So far Varget and IMR 3031 have given be the best results. The Core Lokts in that test worked to perfection, I wish they had a 225 CL....but I have quite a few of the 200's around, both SP and RN, I've shot my best 3 shot group with the SP's.
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Old 03-03-2010, 12:54 PM
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I think of my .358 as a 200 Yd. gun , my loads of choice is 50Gr. of W-748 with the Speer 220 or the Sierra 225 . I don't know about Elk but deer die instantly when tagged with either one . If I were going to shoot 300 Yds. I'd prefer a Whelen .
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Old 03-03-2010, 02:25 PM
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Presuming a MV of 2500fps, with the .294BC of the 200gr Core-lokt, you would sight in about 3.75" high at 100 yards, zero at about 225 and 4" low at around 265 yards, with plenty of energy for elk or deer, at that distance. This is for an 8" high kill zone.

Hopefully they'll be within 200 yards and it won't make a lick of difference.
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