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  #1  
Old 01-29-2012, 02:18 PM
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3 position safety


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I was looking at a Kimber 8400 rifle ad and it specifies a " 3 position safety''
Can someone explain what the three positions are. And why they are
better than a typical 2 position safety as is typical on , say , a Remington 700.
Thanks.

Randy

Last edited by rcs9250; 01-29-2012 at 02:21 PM.
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  #2  
Old 01-29-2012, 02:25 PM
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~ Safe, bolt will not open.
~ Safe, bolt will open.
~ Fire.

This allows the bolt to be opened while unloading, yet still not able to fire.

The bolt locked feature keeps the action from inadvertently opening while trudging through the woods.
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  #3  
Old 01-29-2012, 06:01 PM
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To expand on what Mainspring posted, the Kimber 3-position safety is in the 'safe, locked-bolt' position at the rear position. In the middle position, you can work the bolt and unload your magazine, still 'on safe'. Farthest forward, on fire.

With a Rem 700 two-position safety, you have the middle position and the fire position, compared to the Kimber/Mod 70, so the bolt is never locked on the Rem 700, at least the newer ones. Older Mod 700's did lock the bolt when on 'safe'.

They both work, so it is a personal preference issue. I grew up using the 3-position safety so it's familiar, and I like the locked-bolt feature, but I do still use a couple Rem 700's. One locks the bolt, the newer one doesn't.
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  #4  
Old 01-30-2012, 04:59 AM
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I do not like the way the Rem bolt opens when you are walking through the woods. I cut a piece of bike tubbing that I loop around the trigger guard and over the bolt to keep it shut. I had one instance where I pulled the trigger and felt it pull the bolt down into firing position and then fire. Probably safe but not really to my liking. I have since bought a Savage and Ruger which have the three position safe which was a key consideration when buying them. As a result my rem 7mm is now used by my son who felt the little adaptation I made was annoying raised the gun to fire at a deer and the bolt was too far open and the gun would not open. Of course when something like this happens it is hard to stay perfectly still so by the time he figured out what was going on the deer was long gone.
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  #5  
Old 01-30-2012, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raptor5618 View Post
I do not like the way the Rem bolt opens when you are walking through the woods.
That was a reason the safety locked the bolt to begin with. Then legal decided people couldn't unload the rifle without shots being fired so we ended up a safety that allows the bolt to open.
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  #6  
Old 01-30-2012, 04:05 PM
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Not to open a huge can of worms, but it must be said; so far as I know, the Model 70 style 3 pos safety has never had any reported issues of the firearm discharging with the safety in the safe position (either safe position). The same cannot be said of the Rem safety/trigger. And it may be more of a trigger issue, I don't know. The sad part is, I'd like to add a Model 700 to my bolt gun collection, but I don't know which guns in the series are prone to the issue and which are not. I know I am usually told the older guns are of better overall quality than the more recent ones. But the old ones perhaps are more prone to the "safe-on" discharge problem. Because of this, so far I have steered away from the 700. I am running out of Bolt gun brands to acquire though. Basically I need a Browning and a Remington to round out the major manufacturer collection. Then I can start working on the Sakos and Kimbers of the world;-)
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  #7  
Old 01-30-2012, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mainspring View Post
That was a reason the safety locked the bolt to begin with. Then legal decided people couldn't unload the rifle without shots being fired so we ended up a safety that allows the bolt to open.

Not sure if you've ever owned a rifle that required the safety to be OFF to load and then also UNLOAD; but I did. The gun/safety malfunctioned, plain and simple. The result? A hole in the ground, as it should have been. But, I will tell you that I do NOT trust the members of your hunting group, like I trusted the group I was a member of, when this occurred. Think about that when you think about the bad guns Remington DID sell.

The fact that Remington simply changed their safety so that it could be engaged while their rifles were loaded and unloaded (in about 1982) should, perhaps, tell you something.
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Old 01-30-2012, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnhunter View Post
Not sure if you've ever owned a rifle that required the safety to be OFF to load and then also UNLOAD; but I did.

-------

The gun/safety malfunctioned, plain and simple.
These are two totally separate issues though. The safety not locking the bolt helps prevent stupid people from doing stupid things...like finger on the trigger while unloading and/or pointing a rifle where it's not supposed to be pointed if it fires.

If you are actually in the process of shooting or getting ready to shoot, the "locking" feature does nothing to make the rifle safer.

~~~

I have had many rifles cross my bench for firing when the safety was removed. I don't recall any cases where the cause was anything other than improper maintenance or a poorly adjusted trigger, (or a combination of the two).
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  #9  
Old 01-31-2012, 07:22 AM
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Some people can't walk and chew gum at the same time , it's not the gum's fault !! Can't imagine anyone firing a rifle , or attempting to , with the bolt partially open ! I've never met a gun that I couldn't outsmart , but evidently some have !
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  #10  
Old 01-31-2012, 07:43 AM
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I have several guns with various 2 & 3 position safeties. Don't have a preference. It just depends on what you want. I personally side with Oneoldsap on this, for my preference.
I have crawled through some real stuff in the woods of Idaho. Not sure how the bolt gets opened, unless you do it. Also don't know how you wouldn't notice...
"Different strokes, for different folks" is the bottom line.
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  #11  
Old 01-31-2012, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mainspring View Post
These are two totally separate issues though. The safety not locking the bolt helps prevent stupid people from doing stupid things...like finger on the trigger while unloading and/or pointing a rifle where it's not supposed to be pointed if it fires.

If you are actually in the process of shooting or getting ready to shoot, the "locking" feature does nothing to make the rifle safer.

~~~

I have had many rifles cross my bench for firing when the safety was removed. I don't recall any cases where the cause was anything other than improper maintenance or a poorly adjusted trigger, (or a combination of the two).
My point, should you have completely missed it, was that there was no finger on, nor anywhere near the trigger when the gun fired, period. No one can know when a mechanical device made by people will malfunction as it has been proven that the M700 safety/trigger has many times. My point is/was that if the safety does not have to be disengaged to unload a rifle, a malfuntion such as this, caused by simply moving the safety to OFF and having the rifle fire, will not occur.
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  #12  
Old 01-31-2012, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnhunter View Post
My point, should you have completely missed it, was that there was no finger on, nor anywhere near the trigger when the gun fired, period. No one can know when a mechanical device made by people will malfunction as it has been proven that the M700 safety/trigger has many times.
Yes, I understand this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnhunter View Post
My point is/was that if the safety does not have to be disengaged to unload a rifle, a malfunction such as this, caused by simply moving the safety to OFF and having the rifle fire, will not occur.
Your statement, as written, is correct. Be sure to never take your safety off, that way your rifle will not fire.

What I'm saying, is that the rifle is designed to be operated with the safety in the "off" position.

~~~

Again...it's two separate issues. You are saying the 3-position safety is a reason for the malfunction.
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  #13  
Old 01-31-2012, 09:26 AM
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TNHunter is correct. If the rifle can be unloaded while on safe, that is one less chance for mechanical failure to cause a gun to fire. While I do not depend on safety devices to substitute for good muzzle control, I also do not expect guns to fire when taken off safe.

Perhaps only affecting a very small number of users, but when it happens to YOU, it sure gets your attention.
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  #14  
Old 01-31-2012, 10:40 AM
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I'm trying to envision scrambling through cover heavy enough that you get the bolt handle pushed up on your rifle without noticing it. Color me cautious, but I try to make sure the gun comes through the cover basically untouched. You just about can't get through really thick areas with the gun slung on your back and when it's in your hands I'd think you would notice if a branch lifted up on the bolt. Maybe I just need to hunt in nastier areas? If I do, I'll grab my M70 and pull the safety all the way back.

Jason
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  #15  
Old 01-31-2012, 10:53 AM
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It's not that you don't notice, because you do, it's that it does happen.

Nasty brush, slung over the shoulder, attached to a pack, on a quad...

The rifle does not need to be loaded. When the action is open all sorts of dust and debris can enter. Many shooters take the precaution to install scope covers to prevent fouling, a locked bolt helps also.
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  #16  
Old 01-31-2012, 04:09 PM
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Quote by Mainspring:Your statement, as written, is correct. Be sure to never take your safety off, that way your rifle will not fire.

You have, again, completely missed the point! You cannot unload a M700, built before 1982, without first pushing the TWO POSITION SAFETY to OFF. Period!! Not sure where your disconnect is happening, but it does seem to be, happening.
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  #17  
Old 01-31-2012, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnhunter View Post
You cannot unload a M700, built before 1982, without first pushing the TWO POSITION SAFETY to OFF.
So what. 1-position, 2-position, 3-position or no safety at all, a malfunction is a malfunction.

You're hung up on "unloading". Substitute the words "target shoot" or "plink" or "fire" for your use of "unload".

~~~

No, no disconnect.

I know how the gun operates and how it is meant to operate.

The rifle is not meant to fire when the safety is disengaged.

A malfunction is a malfunction.

The safety cannot make the gun fire. The safety can prevent the gun from firing.

The malfunction is lack of engagement between the sear and trigger.

If the gun is capable of firing when the safety is disengaged, it means the malfunction is occurring before the safety is operating. The safety was preventing the gun from firing, not causing it to fire.
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  #18  
Old 01-31-2012, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mainspring View Post
The rifle is not meant to fire when the safety is disengaged.
Unless the trigger is pulled. This is getting confusing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mainspring View Post
The safety cannot make the gun fire. The safety can prevent the gun from firing.

The malfunction is lack of engagement between the sear and trigger.

If the gun is capable of firing when the safety is disengaged [when the trigger is not pulled - S Crea's added text], it means the malfunction is occurring before the safety is operating. The safety was preventing the gun from firing, not causing it to fire.
A friend pulled the trigger on my pre-1982 Rem 700, with the safety on. When pushing the safety to 'fire', the gun fired without a finger on the trigger. When operating the safety becomes the trigger causing it to fire, mincing terms about trigger mechanism and what we reasonably expect to happen is irrelevant.
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Old 01-31-2012, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn Crea View Post
A friend pulled the trigger on my pre-1982 Rem 700, with the safety on. When pushing the safety to 'fire', the gun fired without a finger on the trigger.
There ya go! Thank you.

The malfunction occurred when the engagement did not reset.

The safety prevented the rifle from firing.

Disengaging the safety, well, disengaged the safety and allowed the rifle to fire.

The purpose of disengaging the safety is to allow the gun to fire.
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  #20  
Old 01-31-2012, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mainspring View Post
The safety prevented the rifle from firing.
Until the 'safety' became the trigger.
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