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  #1  
Old 02-04-2012, 08:43 AM
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338 lapua


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i was watching the military channel about sniper rifles and they staarted touting the 338 lapua as the best thing anybody has come up with. my question was , after reviewing ballistic data, why invent a new cartridge when they already had the 338-378 wby which is actually a bit better ballistically. kind of like reinventing the wheel.
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  #2  
Old 02-04-2012, 09:16 AM
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I could be wrong on this, but i read somewhere that most rifles made specifically for 338lapua can run a lot higher chamber pressures and you can load hotter than books say. But they have to print lower max loads cause many rifles arn't made specifically for 338 lapua just chambered to fit it.

I also think that lapua ammunition is very high quality( and expensive) and you can't get cheap stuff so you always going to be shooting accurate loads. I think this has a lot to do with it being and accurate caliber.
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  #3  
Old 02-04-2012, 10:50 AM
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A few things strike me about it.
1) the military isn't going to use a belted case.
2) Although I don't have info infront of me, I would guess that the Lapua case is shorter.
3) Depending upon "balistics" 100 fps difference isn't really a difference.
4) The Lapua wasn't developed for "us". We adopted it, but it wasn't designed for us.
Also the original design developed much higher than anticipated pressures, and the case had to be re-designed. Possible that the early figures are used in manuals.
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  #4  
Old 02-04-2012, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkker View Post
A few things strike me about it.
1) the military isn't going to use a belted case.
2) Although I don't have info infront of me, I would guess that the Lapua case is shorter.
3) Depending upon "balistics" 100 fps difference isn't really a difference.
4) The Lapua wasn't developed for "us". We adopted it, but it wasn't designed for us.
Also the original design developed much higher than anticipated pressures, and the case had to be re-designed. Possible that the early figures are used in manuals.
Good points except the first one. Our Military does use the belted 300Win Mag case & even converting many 308's to it.

Last edited by nomosendero; 02-04-2012 at 02:32 PM.
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  #5  
Old 02-04-2012, 05:57 PM
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Yeah,
Apparently I got carried away in dream land again
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  #6  
Old 02-04-2012, 06:10 PM
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Here is the History of the 338 Lapua from a Finnish point of view.


Story of .338 Lapua Magnum - Lapua
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  #7  
Old 02-04-2012, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by bobcouchman View Post
why invent a new cartridge when they already had the 338-378 wby which is actually a bit better ballistically. kind of like reinventing the wheel.
The 338-378 was looked at but it had feeding issues. The 338 Lapua was kicked off by the Marine Corp back in the early 80s, looking for a purpose built long range caliber. Lapua got into the mix and finalized the cartridge design. Better ballistically "on paper" is only important to people who read more than they shoot.
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  #8  
Old 02-04-2012, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkker View Post
Yeah,
Apparently I got carried away in dream land again
Hey it's Sat nite
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  #9  
Old 02-05-2012, 05:30 AM
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lapua based on 416 rigby, as is the wby except roy liked a belt on his. chamber pressure, i doubt if any rifle can take more than a wby. the loads are set at 60,000 and the rifles are rated at more that twice that. as for chambering problems, the wby is push feed. with a controlled feed design, it would have no problems. and best of all its all american made
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  #10  
Old 02-05-2012, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobcouchman View Post
lapua based on 416 rigby, as is the wby except roy liked a belt on his. chamber pressure, i doubt if any rifle can take more than a wby. the loads are set at 60,000 and the rifles are rated at more that twice that. as for chambering problems, the wby is push feed. with a controlled feed design, it would have no problems. and best of all its all american made

Laupa is CIP'd at higher pressure than Weatherby rounds are SAAMI'd. Control round feed has nothing to do with the better feed and extraction of the Laupa 338. It is the case taper.

Read the link that I posted above it is all in the write up from Laupa
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  #11  
Old 02-05-2012, 02:18 PM
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338 Lapua does nothing that the 338 RUM can not do.

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  #12  
Old 02-06-2012, 05:35 AM
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per hodgdon reloading

338-378 wby 200 gr bullet 3480fps 53,800 cup

338 lapua 200gr bullet 3189fps 52,200 cup

338 rum 200gr bullet 3222fps 62000 psi

i dont see a pressure advantage or velocity advantage. also i have a 30-378 wby mag that can give me 3/4" groups at 175 yds with my hand loads.
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  #13  
Old 02-06-2012, 05:37 PM
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The Weatherby holds more powder, the RUM and the Laupa hold about the same amount. A 200 grain bullet for long range is a waste of time.

My 338 Laupa gets 2800 FPS with the 300 grain SMK and 3200 FPS with the 250 SMK. The 300 SMK is a much better choice for long range, not even close
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  #14  
Old 02-07-2012, 06:06 AM
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Why mess with the little 338. Get a serious long range gun like a 408 cheytec or 416 barrett if you wish to hit things 1+ miles away.
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  #15  
Old 02-07-2012, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nomosendero View Post
Good points except the first one. Our Military does use the belted 300Win Mag case & even converting many 308's to it.
I've heard that statement on TV also but how does one convert a .308 bolt action to .300 Win Mag? The action length is too short. Maybe it would be more correct to say that the .308 rifles are being replaced with .300 Win Mag rifles.
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  #16  
Old 02-07-2012, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by biggun View Post
I've heard that statement on TV also but how does one convert a .308 bolt action to .300 Win Mag? The action length is too short. Maybe it would be more correct to say that the .308 rifles are being replaced with .300 Win Mag rifles.
Rifles like the M24 are built on the long action and can easily be changed to 300 WM.
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  #17  
Old 02-07-2012, 09:30 AM
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Wink

Some of you need to review your facts and read the Lapua article...the 338 Lapua Magnum is CIP at 420 MPa, 60,619 psi...the 300 LAPUA MAGNUM, or 30-338 Lapua has a MUCH HIGHER CIP rating, 68,000 psi plus, but it exists only as a wildcat with a CIP data sheet.

Many of you also forget that it is the RECEIVER that dictates the pressure level rather than the cartridge case itself. If you don't believe this stick a 30-338 Lapua chambered barrel on a receiver rated for ~40K psi, load a round to 68K psi plus and stand back.

I am going to town today to order a Savage #19482 338 Lapua...more for the receiver, stock, trigger and 5 shot clip, than the caliber. I have plans to do 32" 510 Makatak, my own designed and named Rigby based wildcat presently built on a Ruger Tang action, having a case capacity of ~135 gr H2O and somewhere down the road have a reamer cut to the same specs only in 338 cal and rechamber the Lapua. That way I can do some minor mods to my custom 510 Mak dies(make a neck sizer bushing) and save ~$200 bucks in die costs.

The 378 Wby necked wildcatted up/down to various calibers has been around for a long time...it is an excellent proposition...I see and understand the "problem" areas, but they DON'T necessarily add to or detract from the reasons for its existence.

The 378/416 WBY case shares the same case volume as my Rigby wildcat, but I like non-belted cases for some reasons and receivers and belted mag cases for other reasons and receivers...the reasons are all more subjective than objective, but that's the case for ALL personal bias...isn't it.
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  #18  
Old 02-07-2012, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by lumberjak View Post
Rifles like the M24 are built on the long action and can easily be changed to 300 WM.
Ah so! Interesting that the militray would build a .308 on a long action. I guess someone had a little foresight!
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  #19  
Old 02-07-2012, 02:38 PM
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This is where much of the confusion comes from


Quote:
.338 Lapua Magnum maximum C.I.P. cartridge dimensions. All sizes in millimeters (mm).
Americans would define the shoulder angle at alpha/2 ≈ 20 degrees. The common rifling twist rate for this cartridge is 254 mm (1 in 10 in), 6 grooves, Ø lands = 8.38 mm, Ø grooves = 8.58 mm, land width = 2.79 mm and the primer type is large rifle magnum.
According to the official C.I.P. decisions and tables edition 2007 the .338 Lapua Magnum case can handle up to 420 MPa (60,916 psi) piezo pressure. This now prevails over the C.I.P. decisions and tables edition 2003, that rated the .338 Lapua Magnum at 470 MPa (68,167 psi) maximum piezo pressure. Remarkably the 470 MPa (68,167 psi) maximum piezo pressure C.I.P. ruling for the .300 Lapua Magnum cartridge, which is based on the same case, was not accordingly changed. In C.I.P. regulated countries every rifle cartridge combo has to be proofed at 125% of the prevailing maximum C.I.P. pressure to certify for sale to consumers.
Lapua is ambivalent on the maximum piezo pressure of this cartridge. In the article[52] by Janne Pohjoispää Lapua propagates the C.I.P. 2006 ruling of 420 MPa (60,915 psi) maximum piezo pressure. To further complicate matters the mentioned 56,000 CUP C.I.P. copper crusher pressure in this article would translate in ≈ 447.5 MPa (64,903 psi) C.I.P. piezo pressure according to a study on the conversion from CUP to PSI for rifle cartridges by Denton Bramwell.[53] The C.I.P. 2003 ruling of 470 MPa (68,167 psi) piezo pressure is corroborated by Lapua Australia in the History and development of the .338 Lapua Magnum article by Alan C. Paulson.[54] A reverse engineering simulation with QuickLOAD internal ballistic software predicted that Lapua load their factory .338 Lapua Magnum ammunition at ≈ 420 MPa (60,915 psi) piezo pressure as Alan C. Paulson asserts in his article.
The large boltface combined with the high maximum pressure makes that the .338 Lapua Magnum should only be chambered in rifles that are capable of handling such large and fierce cartridges and thus high bolt thrust safely. Chambering such powerful super magnum cartridges in rifles intended for normal magnum rifle cartridges and using high pressure loads can cause serious or fatal injury to the shooter and bystanders.
The American .338-378 Weatherby Magnum cartridge introduced in 1998 and the American .338 Remington Ultra Magnum (.338 RUM) cartridge introduced in 2000 are probably the closest currently (2007) commercially available ballistic twins of the .338 Lapua Magnum. The .338-378 Weatherby Magnum is however a belted cartridge and the .338 Remington Ultra Magnum is a rebated rim cartridge.
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  #20  
Old 02-07-2012, 04:33 PM
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Ah so! Interesting that the militray would build a .308 on a long action. I guess someone had a little foresight!
Yea, I thought that was old news, and why I did not get into the actions.
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