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  #1  
Old 06-29-2004, 05:32 PM
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Low noise flat point .22 long rifle round?


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Gentlemen:

I think the production of a .22 LR round with a 40 grain flat point bullet at approximately 600 fps would sell very well.
The flat point for small game impact and low velocity for quiet operation out of a rifle would make a very useful round. The current 29 grain CB round nose by CCI is handy but lacks, for a better word, impact on larger small game such as rabbits.

What do you think?

Ralph
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  #2  
Old 06-29-2004, 05:58 PM
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Maybe the Aguila 60gr. subsonics?
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  #3  
Old 06-29-2004, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeG
Maybe the Aguila 60gr. subsonics?
They run about 950-965 fps in the rifles I'v clocked them in. However (for me, these loads are for revolvers) can flat point them to nearly a full wad cutter and still have 43gr. of bullet. Does smack small game with some authority.
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  #4  
Old 06-30-2004, 02:50 AM
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Aguila 60gr

I do like the Aguila 60gr subsonic quiet and hard hitting. They put hurtin on crows at 70yrds with many more applications on game and varmints I'm sure. How do you go about flat pointing these to the wadcutter 43gr. you mentioned in above thread. I'm interested in that. Thanks
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  #5  
Old 06-30-2004, 06:28 AM
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Silence is golden

Gentlemen:

The rimfire round I was suggesting ( I have sent this suggestion to Winchester), is for a quiet load with more "authority" than the existing .22 CB rounds as marketed by CCI. Out of a 24 inch rifle barrel the load I am suggesting should make less noise than a handclap. The barrel itself, beyond the first few inches, would become an expansion chamber to muffle the powder blast at bullet exit.

As for the flat point, it should not be so large as to prevent feeding in repeating actions. Even a small flat point would enhance the stopping power on small game. I believe this load would be quite useful. The long rifle length case would allow feeding in repeating actions set up for this length. The case would also be long enough to prevent gas escape under the extractor/ejector on break action guns like the Rossi single shot. The "normal" bullet weight would not present stabilization problems either.

Ralph

Last edited by Ralph McLaney; 06-30-2004 at 10:43 AM.
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  #6  
Old 06-30-2004, 03:25 PM
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kramsey:

Took a look at one of the tools sold for flat pointing .22LR ammo (and someone here will have to supply the name of those little file-dies...right now, it escapes me) and decided it was too easy to make some than to buy them... used sections of cut .22barrel, reamed and shortened. Idea is you put a round into the end of this little short (but well fitted) tube, and file off whatever sticks out the front of it....in the 60gr. example, I've set it to allow a good bit of lead to be removed, so I cut it before filing flat (try to not inhale or ingest the filings). I'm a little ahead the taper, with a flat of .20".

As you could guess, a bullet with that kind of shape is going to hold on to velocity just a little better than a ping-pong ball.

The easy way to get a .22LR to be quiet is to use a very long barrel...as in 30" or longer. YES, it does slow the round down by friction (.22LR's tend to get their highest bel. in barrels of 16-18", past that they start slowing down due to barrel friction).

Idea here is that the longer the barrel, the lower the pressure of the gas as it is released at the muzzle the quierter the blast...and the extra long barrel tends to make even HV loads sub-sonic which elimiates the "crack" of the bullet.

BTW: It's usually a "no-go" to put a 30" barrel on a standard semi-auto action without some serious action timing work...other wise, the case action tends to open while the bullet is still in the barrel and it gets REAL LOUD as the gas escapes out the ejection port.

I honestly don't know if there is a market for ammo of the type proposed or not...judging by the current market trends, if it isn't cheap-cheap "bulk box", accuracy tweaked match ammo, or some super fast "stingerish" type load, people seem to be staying away in droves.

Last edited by ribbonstone; 06-30-2004 at 03:27 PM.
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  #7  
Old 06-30-2004, 08:55 PM
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I think the tool ribbonstone is talking about is the one Paco Kelly makes and sells Try http://www.leverguns.com/ this should get you in the ball park

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  #8  
Old 07-01-2004, 08:28 AM
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Poor Marketing in the shooting sports industry

Ribbonstone:

I can understand your take on the market demand for low noise .22 rimfire ammo. Most shooters don't read forums like this or even shooting magazines.

In my experience very few hunters/shooters know anything about ammunition other than what they see on the Wal Mart shelf. When I mention quiet or near silent ammunition like CCI CB rounds, most have never heard of it - and won't unless it is on the display shelf at the 'Mart next to the bulk long rifle ammo.

Is it poor marketing?

Ralph

Last edited by Ralph McLaney; 07-01-2004 at 08:41 AM.
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  #9  
Old 07-14-2004, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph McLaney
Gentlemen:

I think the production of a .22 LR round with a 40 grain flat point bullet at approximately 600 fps would sell very well.
The flat point for small game impact and low velocity for quiet operation out of a rifle would make a very useful round. The current 29 grain CB round nose by CCI is handy but lacks, for a better word, impact on larger small game such as rabbits.

What do you think?

Ralph

Try a HANNED tool....it allows you to put a meplat on the nose of lead .22 ammo.....makes a HUGE difference.....now...if you measure and cull by rim thickness and put the meplat on the head..you have ammo that is very accurate and hits really hard...
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  #10  
Old 07-19-2004, 03:48 PM
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It would be interesting to see how a 40 grain flat point 22 LR would do at about 600fps. I wonder if it would be stable enough to shoot straight??

If you need a really quiet 22, think of adding a .22 spring piston air rifle to your collection. They are really quiet. Some of those are in the 600 fps range and I guarantee they are deadly on small game out to 20 or so yards. Head shots of course. At that distance without a scope, a decent air rifle should shoot a pattern you can cover with a quarter. Part of the fun is sneaking up close enough to have a sure shot.

I started out hunting on my own in my mid-30s (grew up in a no-guns family), going after rabbits with an 8 grain .177 flat head pellet out of a Beeman R-7 about 600 fps. Head shots only, and every single rabbit would jump up and do a back flip and be dead when it hit the ground. They were on average more effective for instant kills than 22 rimfire bullets. I think a 22 cal. airgun pellet would be even better. I'm thinking of the Gamo Hunter 220 air rifle that shoots a 15 grain flat point pellet @ 800 fps. I liked flat head pellets for head shots better than pointed pellets.

I haven't owned a spring piston air rifle or pistol for years and have been thinking about getting one of each again. My best firearms shooting was the years I was shooting spring piston pellet guns about 200 rounds per week inside my house after the kids went to sleep, into a homemade backstop packed with childrens' modeling clay. That trapped all the pellets. I know how many I shot because I flattened the empty pellet tin lids with a hammer and tossed them in a drawer. At the end of one year I had 20 flat tin lids. Multiply that by 500 pellets per tin and you discover I shot 10,000 pellets that year. Cheap flathead .177 pellets are about $5 per tin. So for about $100 without having to put any gas in the car, I got in 10,000 practice rounds. Anyone would get better doing that.
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Last edited by Greenhorn Dave; 07-19-2004 at 04:07 PM.
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  #11  
Old 07-19-2004, 04:00 PM
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Take the cci cb long and put a flat point on it ! It moves at about 750fps ! For live game i prefur high velocity HP's ! I have shot HV 40grain .22rf at rabbits and they ran away after letting out a scream ! Shot squirrels with the same at 25yds 3 times and they were still running ! Velocity and HV works the best with RF ! I went to a 32/20 for small game it is more humaine ! JAGG
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  #12  
Old 07-31-2004, 07:36 PM
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Hi Jagg,
> Take the cci cb long and put a flat point on it !
> I went to a 32/20 for small game it is more humaine!

I really enjoy small game hunting, and have done a fair bit with light cast loads in 30-40 or 30-06. Something like Lyman 3118 has a big, flat nose and drops them quickly and silently, even at very low velocities.

Second best has been a Rem Rolling Block in .32 RF Long: No BANG or even a CRACK!. Just a quiet 'snap' like a twig breaking, and even big fox squirrels drop with a 'thump' and never twitch, but the Navy ammo is impossibly inaccurate, and the old Winchester ammo is hard to find, and bloody expensive. I'm having a .32-20 built on a Cadet Martini, but I'm also considering a .32 CF long. Any thoughts?

Spent today trying out a whole mess of quiet .22 types, including Colibri, Super Colibri, CCI mini-caps, CCI CB caps, Rem subsonics and the like. Not a single one would group in less than 4 inches at 50 yards, and drop (from a 'normal') sight setting was 6 to 18 inches, though they are great fun at rock throwing distances. This in a rifle that shoots most .22's (even Stingers) like they were lasers. How anyone can use them for squirrel head shots any further than 15 or 20 yards is beyond me.

Molly
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  #13  
Old 08-01-2004, 05:37 AM
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CCI did make a round called the SGB (small game bullet) it was a low velocity flat nose bullet. I tried one box on squirrels and loved them so much I ordered a case, I still have about a brick and a half. I guess they still make them I havent looked in a while because I havent needed any.
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  #14  
Old 08-02-2004, 05:45 AM
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>CCI did make a round called the SGB (small game bullet) it was a low velocity flat nose bullet.

That's neat!! I was not aware of them, and appreciate your mentioning them. I found several good reviews on the internet, and they're still in production. I'll give them a try if I cna find some, but man, they're priced surprisingly high at ~ $4 / box. Wonder why? I see no obvious reason they'd be significantly more expensive than other .22's. Mebby I'll go ask CCI.

But thanks again.

Molly
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  #15  
Old 08-03-2004, 01:17 PM
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KBmoly ! If you are going to make a 32 long cf then use the Smith and Wesson long round ! But with a 32/20 you can easly load down to a 32 rf or and of the CF longs ! I use special low velocity pure lead alloy round ball loads for much of my squirrel hunting but switch to light cast bullets for longer shots ! It is suprising what can be done with a 32/20 once you get one to group with your loads ! JAGG
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  #16  
Old 08-03-2004, 07:06 PM
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>KBmoly ! If you are going to make a 32 long cf then use the Smith and Wesson long round !

Oh, of course. Never even considered the .32 Long Colt. Well, that's not true either; I've got a Rem #4 rolling block in .32 RF that I picked up a spare breechblock for, and converted it to CF. I've also got a couple of boxes of the colt ammo, but my real achievment was reloading the .32 long colt for use in the rolling block. I had a pretty slick system of carrying a shirt pocket full of loaded cases, that were topped off with a beeswax wad instead of a bullet. I carried the other shirt pocket with some Lyman 3118 slugs sized to .312, cast of wheelweight metal. In use, I just dropped a slug in the chamber, and followed it with the loaded case. Slower than a .22 semi-auto (BG), but VERY effective.

But I have a passle of .32 S&W Long pistols that I load for, and the same caliber in a rifle is a real natural.

>But with a 32/20 you can easly load down to a 32 rf or and of the CF longs !

Yeah, but the same statement can be made of the 30-40, 30-06, etc. I've done it, and the guns are heavier, but it's still a blast. But the bigger cases are harder to keep the loads quiet, and the accuracy consistent. That's why I'm leaning toward the .32 S&W long. I only have two .32-20's: One is a S&W M&P revolver of minimal value on a squirrel hunt. The other should have been the answer to my dreams: A Cadet Martini in .32 S&W Long. But I left all my gunsmithing tools behind at one point or another in several job-related moves. The hack that did the work didn't even have the smarts to polish a drill bit for the chamber: He tried to cut it with a boring bar. Naturally, it grabbed and took a chunk out of the side of the chamber that couldn't even be cleaned up with a .32-20 reamer I still had. I'll be replacing the barrel, but the caliber is still up for grabs. I'm leaning toward the .32 long, with the idea that the .32-20 reamer is not going to go away if I need it.

>I use special low velocity pure lead alloy round ball loads for much of my squirrel hunting but switch to light cast bullets for longer shots ! It is suprising what can be done with a 32/20 once you get one to group with your loads !

Interesting. One of the things I want to try is a patched round ball in the .32 S&W Long (or the .32-20): Say, something like 2 grains of bullseye with a #1 Buckshot (.30") wrapped in a linen patch, as if .32 case were a muzzleloader barrel. Is this anything like what you're doing?

kbmoly
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  #17  
Old 08-08-2004, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph McLaney
Gentlemen:

I think the production of a .22 LR round with a 40 grain flat point bullet at approximately 600 fps would sell very well.
The flat point for small game impact and low velocity for quiet operation out of a rifle would make a very useful round. The current 29 grain CB round nose by CCI is handy but lacks, for a better word, impact on larger small game such as rabbits.

What do you think?

Ralph

try the Hanned tool..it works great
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  #18  
Old 09-02-2004, 11:58 AM
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KMoly ! I have used the patched round ball in the 32/20 on squirrels and it didn't work out at well a pure lead RB ! Try 231 for a powder charge it burns cleaner then bullseye and is more accurate ! Squirrels are tough to kill that is why in a reduced load i have to use pure lead ! To give you an idea of this , i was using W.W.alloy in both RB and bullets and 2 to 5 hits in the chest and back between the shoulders a 25 to 30 yds didn't bring the squirrel down ! the balls and the bullets would go under the skin and go around the rib cage and out ! Even a hit in the chest a under 30 feet with a lyman 75gr pointed bullet cast of W.W. skid around the ribs and went out the back ! Pure lead grabs and smacks the critter dead ! JAGG
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  #19  
Old 09-02-2004, 05:34 PM
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Hi JAGG,

>I have used the patched round ball in the 32/20 on squirrels and it didn't work out at well a pure lead RB !

I don't understand. The buckshot I was planning to use IS pure lead. Am I missing something?

Try 231 for a powder charge it burns cleaner then bullseye and is more accurate !

Thanks for the tip. I'll give it a try.

> i was using W.W.alloy in both RB and bullets and 2 to 5 hits in the chest and back between the shoulders a 25 to 30 yds didn't bring the squirrel down ! the balls and the bullets would go under the skin and go around the rib cage and out ! Even a hit in the chest a under 30 feet with a lyman 75gr pointed bullet cast of W.W. skid around the ribs and went out the back !

Holy mackerel! Five hits in the chest, and the squirrel was still moving? Are your squirrels armor plated or something? The squirrels around here can be brought down with a single judiciously placed airgun pellet. Dunno the velocity at impact, but starting out at ~500 or 600 FPS, it can't be too impressive at impact. The pellet only weighs about 7.5 grains, and has a flat nose. Your RB would have a lot better ballistic coefficient, and should deliver a lot more energy if it starts at a similar velocity.

I take a back seat to nobody in my admiration of the tough little buggers. I was once skinning one with a dull knife, and decided that the tin shears from my shop would be a better way to go. I couldn't believe it, but that squirrel's skin actually turned the snips, and wouldn't cut! But I've still never encountered anything like your results. What kind of powder charge are you using? Any idea of the penetration in soft pine? My best guess is that you were using a VERY light load indeed.

Regards,
kbmoly
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  #20  
Old 09-03-2004, 09:09 AM
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Velocities were from 900 to 1000fps ! Most buckshot i have has antimony in it ! I had to cut the squirrels open to find out what was happening ! The RB loads were developed so as not to carry to far past the trees with danger to people as a 22rf will do ! Be glad Squirrels and Marmots don't grow to be the size of bears or we would need a Bazooka to bag them ! Ps Martini with 32/20 works fine as is !JAGG
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