I've been searching for loading data for brass shotgun shells and not having a whole lot of luck!
By way of introduction, I'm a machinist/toolmaker/hobby gunsmith who learned the basics of handloading (and gunsmithing) from a careful and very talented gunsmith/mentor who'd impressed upon me the need for caution and safety around firearms, whether in the field or at the range, also on the workbench, and especially while reloading! I purchased and studied the classic gunsmithing books, rebarreled and rechambered a couple rifles, handfiled and handcut dovetails and extractor grooves, recrowned barrels, learned to fit and bed an action and barrel to a semi-inletted gunstock blank - all under his supervision. Whenever we'd go down in his shop and work, he'd talk common sense about guns, and because even in my teens I'd developed a love for early, vintage cartridges for which (at least back in the '60's) there wasn't always good up-to-date loading data, he'd explain how to safely transpose old loads with no longer available powders & components, to utilize newer components. He'd published articles in Gun Digest and I'm guessing in other publications also, and I stood in awe at his knowledge, and he drilled into me the need for extreme caution when dealing with anything new, untested and unproven! I was young and had a burning desire to move up to Alaska or British Columbia more than attending one of the gunsmithing schools or colleges - didn't make it that far north, but ended up (for what I'd thought would be a couple year stop enroute!) in Maine. Forty years have passed since I first knocked on Chris's door, I've hunted every inch of my old 100 acre farm during the past 30+ - some years too intently and others just barely. I find myself now, with my daughters grown and moved out and with an understanding wife who grew up in a hunting and shooting household (and a young Springer who loves Partridge), as fired up and excited about shooting and guns as I was 40 years ago! I still have a couple of my Marlin levers, my Ruger revolvers, my Rossi 12 Ga. Hammer double, and a batch of those addictive (for some) NEF/H&R break open single shot rifle/shotguns. I now have better than a half dozen factory fitted shotgun barrels in 12, 20 & 410 gauge, also more than a dozen barrels in centerfire rifle & pistol calibers with reloading tools and components to match. All of my cartridges are rimmed, only a few bottlenecked, with most of them straight walled brass…including shotshells. I'm not a Cowboy action shooter and the only blackpowder I load is in my .50 cal. Muzzleloaders. I do enjoy handloading and then shooting from the bench out back, but I'm really just an old wood's loafer who loves wandering around in his fields and woods with a rifle or shotgun in hand, and outside of deer season with my dog too. I tend to get a little too windy when I post on forums - apologies for that, but I wanted to introduce myself and establish my credentials as an older and a little eccentric, but somewhat knowledgeable and probably overly cautious gun nut!
I do realize that this is a shotgun forum, and I am all set and comfortable with my rifle and pistol loads, but being a little eccentric I've been lugging around 30+ REM-UMC #12 BEST once fired brass cases for the last 25 years and had machined a set of handloading tools for 12ga. Brass shells from a nice article in my 1964 Handloader's Digest. About 15 years ago I also bought a new commemorative tin of "Ducks Unlimited" 12 Ga. Brass loaded shells (before they became collectible!). They're specially headstamped REMINGTON DU 37-87, for the 50th anniversary and have no markings on or in the metal tin stating what the load is, but the small paper label on the bottom reads: MADE IN BRAZIL. Obviously we're at the Magtech connection, so I proceeded to the Magtech website once again to search for all brass loaded shells but only found plastics for loaded ammo. I'd previously attempted to contact Magtech USA via the email address they provide but never received any responses, so back to square one. If anyone has experience with these DU shells, either original literature or firing or disassembling one please post same, as I found nothing after a couple web searches. I plan to section, mike and compare 1 each of REM-UMC and the new MAGTECH brass cases, plus one of the DU (after breaking it down to see what they used for wadding and shot charge), also to fire one factory DU load in each in my 12's to measure case expansion as a comparative standard. I've purchased an additional 50 12 ga.Magtech brass unprimed cases and am waiting for 50 ea. backordered 20 ga. and 410s to arrive. I have some shot on hand, and have spoken to Craig at Circle Fly Wads and am ready to order traditional paperboard and fiber wads in appropriate o'size dias. for thinwall brass shells. Dave at Rocky Mountain Cartridge feels (apparently from our conversation) his heavier walled turned brass shotshells are far superior to other brass products, in that their inside dia. duplicates plastic/paper sizing permitting the use of standard dia. modern wads instead of special oversize 11 or 10 ga. as required by the traditional thinwall 12ga. cases. I've long been an admirerer of the English Paradox doubles and was thrilled to see that somebody was working on a grease grooved traditional slug (Dixie Terminator)! for rifled shotgun bores and had planned to have RMC run me 10 or 20 ea. of 12 & 20 ga. Cases, fitted to the chambers of my rifled singles, with an i.d. sized closer to slug/bore dia., and with a heavier base/web and probably with large rifle primer pocket, and with the headstamp: 12 (or 20) BORE PARADOX !! I do agree with Dave in this case, that for a heavy slug load his cases would be far superior to the older thinwall type and wouldn't require excessive resizing, though would require standard dia. wads (which will end up being an undersize non-standard for me!)
Now back to my opening statement/question in this post: "…loading data for brass shotgun shells…" I've spent hours on the web, searching this and other forum archives, also using standard search engines, poured through local libraries and through my 40+ year accumulation of handloading books, guides and magazine articles and found very little info. What I did find generally refers to Alcan or Rem all-brass shells, Alcan or handcut wads, mixed comments on wad pressure, waterglass (sodium silicate) preferably or Duco cement to seal overshot wad, many comments to the effect that "Powder charges recommended for the regular cases are quite satisfactory to be used with an all brass case.", most powder recommendations are for Alcan AL-5 and AL-7, Dupont Bulk Smokeless or Hi-Skor, one or two Red Dot, and always black powder - lots of questions here. I've never been much of a shotshell loader but have noted that much of the published data states to never substitute wads or hulls?
I plan to load all brass 12ga new Magtech 2.4"and once fired Rem 2.5", 20ga.new Magtech 2.4", .410 bore new Magtech 2". Primers are all large pistol and I'm open to suggestions as to maker - years ago, without going to a magnum primer, I guess Rem might've been a little hotter? Regarding powder types and charges, only Red Dot and Hi-Skor are currently available (what was the then new Hi-Skor in 1964 - same as current Hi-Skor 700X, or 800X?) - how about PB, Herco, Unique - for .410 how about 2400 and 4227 (I always have a can of Unique, 2400 and 4227 around!)? Circle Fly wads are available in 11 & 10 gauge for the 12s, 19ga. for the 20s, .410 or larger for the .410s, and include 1/8" Nitro Card, ½" Fiber Cushion, 3/8" Fiber Wad (a little denser than the ½"), and .025" Overshot Card, and I plan to build wad column height tall enough so that overshot will fall just below end of case, to facilitate a bead of waterglass or Duco or ? to seal and secure same. Wad pressure in these brass cases from what I've found seems to be more a function of secure seating against powder charge, interference fit of o'size wads, and sealing medium on overshot wad. I don't own any pumps or autos and as my shotguns are all break open I don't intend to crimp or roll the mouth of any cases. I don't (but probably should!) shoot Trap or Skeet, no waterfowl/migratory, mostly partridge, maybe a bunny once in a great while, probably eventually Turkey and possibly some buck for larger varmints(will deal with those loads when the time comes). I'm only planning to use lead shot and don't see any need for a plastic shot container/bore protector (with one exception - .my 45/410 rifled barrel, planning to use .444 Marlin cases blown out to .452 at the mouth -.452 dia. lead slugs at warm pistol velocities without reverse rotation rifled choke, with choke .45 cal. Speer Empty shot capsules or a wrap of Mylar film?). I'm planning on mild loads primarily and generally shells will be fired in the same gun, so I don't anticipate any need for case resizing.
Those were my parameters and knowledge or assumptions, and the loads I'm looking for follow below:

12 Ga. - 1-5/8 to1-3/4 oz. heavier shot/buckshot moderate vel.
- 1-1/4 to1-1/2 oz game load " "
- 1-1/8 oz " " low/mod. "
- 1 oz light field load low "

20 Ga. - 1 oz field load mod/high "
- 7/8 oz light field/skeet low/mod "

.410 bore - 3/4 oz field load mod/high "
- 1/2 oz light field/skeet low/mod "

I'd like to come up with some brass case slug loads also: 12 ga. w/ traditional Lyman hollow base in smooth & rifled bores, and will wait for 12 ga.Dixie Terminator to be used in special RMC turned brass case and fired out of NEF single Tracker II (rifled bore light shotgun barrel on SB-1 low pressure shotgun frame), and finally one of those grease grooved "Dixie" slugs but in 20 ga. this time and again out of a RMC turned case, but fired in NEF's rifled bull barrel mounted on a late model/high serial # blued SB-2 frame (same action as used for .444 & .450 Marlin, and some other high pressure large base dia. rounds)!!
I look forward to any info on some shotshell loads - if I'm ever going to load and test and pattern before Fall, figure I better start now

Thanks, Joe

I'm also interested in reloading brass shotshells, how have things gone for you?

any advice?

You're away ahead of me, but 700-X was the only Hy-Skor powder available in 1964. 800-X was introduced in 1982. Good luck with your project.

Bye
Jack

My original post is now a year old - I finally have 12, 20 & 410 Magtech brass shells, lots of Circle Fly oversize wads, old Lyman & Lee loading tools, some shot and powders. I wasn't able to get much loading done last Fall, and frankly still am a little uncomfortable with some of the loading info and data that's been offered.

One of the comments offered was: "take any load published, substitute all brass shell, fiber wad column and large pistol primers, seal (or lightly roll crimp) o'shot top wad ... and shoot!" Any comments?

Bought a little Rossi 20g hammer coach gun as a mate for my Rossi 12g - time to get loading!

Joe - hobbyguymaine

I just found a site a while back about making and loading .410 shells from standard brass cases like .444 Marlin, .303 British and .30-40 Krag. The recommended loads are light and seem to work quite well, provided you don't try to make the .410 something its not.

http://www.endtimesreport.com/410reloading.html

Hobbyguy, you mentioned D/U all brass shells; from what I have heard, they are quite brittle. So if you do shoot them, I would suggest annealing the upper portion before reloading them. Anyone else have any suggestions on this? Emery

Hobby Guy, I have some slugs similat to what you are looking for. What diameter do you need, and for a smooth or rifled bore? For loads I would use Blue dot for warm weather (40+ F), and IMR 4756 or 7625 for cold weather. I know someone will jump on me for my powder selection, but in my experience with slugs, single base powders are generally better for cold weather. For loads I reccommend talking to Tom Armbrust at Ballistic Research He can be reached at 815-385-0037. He has a Pressure gun, and is very friendly an reasonable. Good luck Greg Let me know if I can help you with slugs

For wads and info you might with Ballistic Products. It has been quite awhile but they were a good source for old style and rare wads. The man's name there was Dave Felker I think. I have a box (25) of 12ga 00 buck made by REM-UMC if anyone would be interested.

My original post which started this thread is now 3 years old, and due to other and more pressing projects, I still haven't loaded my brass shells but plan to do so soon! I added an update here about 2 years ago, and now have Rossi hammer double shotguns in 12 & 20 ga. (still looking for a 410 though), 3 NEF singles, and a new 1887 Win lever 12 ga. copy - enough test platforms I guess.

Since this thread has been brought back up ... thought I'd just ask if anybody has been recently and sucessfully loading those thinwall Magtech shells, using correct o'size Circlefly wads with smokeless? No big rush obviously, but I've been told: "black powder only!" and "use any starter loads shown for plastic" - bit of a contrast there, any proven loads with currently available powders would be appreciated. I'd like to work up at least some light upland 12 & 20ga. loads, some turkey/varmint #5 shot 12ga. loads, eventually some buckshot also, any experience out there?

Thanks, Joe

Well, there is certainly enough people out there with magtech hulls and have proven that it can be done.

I don't know about buckshot and slugs, but, here is what I have heard from others on.

non-waterfowl game load: (i.e. turkey)
12g Magtech 2 3/4" brass hull
Flash holes opened up to 3/32"
CCI #350 magnum large pistol primer
18gr of WST starting load
Circle Fly Nitro card
Circle Fly 1/2" wad
Circle Fly 1/4" wad (if using steel, don't use extra wad)
Hand made paper wad-cup, made from paper plates (4 petals)
#5 shot (lead/not steel) 1oz
pair of .060" overshot cards
filled up with Elmer's PRO-BOND white glue

These were used in a Ruger Red label recently with good results.

Hulls have to be resized with a MEC resizer afterwards if shooting in any other gun!!!

I am still searching for data on buckshot (9 pellet) and Lee slugs... stay tuned

Thin wall Magtech shells:

I have a 12 ga NEF set up with strain gage to measure pressure as well as a chronograph. Both of these have been calibrated against standard factory loads.

A 15/64 drill will enlarge the primer pocket to accept 209 Shotgun primer - - need to counter sink just a bit as well.

Here is what I did today.

The load:

CCI 209 primer
22 grains Green Dot
1 10 ga Circle Fly over powder nitro card
2 11 ga Circle Fiber wads seated with approx 50 lbs force
1 oz shot
1 10 ga overshot card sealed with a drop of shellac

Test result (one shot):

peak pressure registered 4,683 psi
muzzle velocity 660 fps

Clearly too light a powder charge for the case size.
I'll post results for 24 grains GD as soon as I try that load.

HGM,

You probably know this, but I'm going to mention it anyway, just in case!

I do come from a Cowboy Action Shooting background, started with a Rossi hammer 12 & 20, have a Stoeger and one of the Remmy Spartans (Baikal). I load Black Powder & subs in all my cartridges, pistol, rifle & shotguns. So, this from my POV;

In modern doubles (Stoeger, Rossi, Savage/Stevens, etc), the forcing cone is longer than older guns. With this longer forcing cone, they work best with the plastic wads. The shorter forcing cones of the older guns work best with the fiber wads and cards.

What happens when you use fiber wads in the longer cones? You don't get a good seal, and gas pressure "leaks" past the wads, causing your pattern to, well, not pattern, and not have the "oomph" it should!

In my game, this can be bad news if you are shooting at knock-down type targets, or clays. And you, being a hunter, know you have to depend on knowing where your shot is going, in order to humanely take the fowl or furry thing.

Now, if you happen to have a gun from around the turn of the century, say, a Remmy 1900, Parker, LC Smith, or even some of the early Husqvarna, Belgian & Spanish imports, your brass & wads with Black Powder loads will be outstanding - what a show you would put on at the Trap & Skeet Range! It'll draw a crowd!

I used the fiber wads & cards in some of the extruded brass B.E.L.L. hulls (no longer made). Wouldn't pattern worth a darn in the 20" Rossi, the Stoeger was a little better (at CAS range) because of the 26" barrels. I had to really beef up the loads for reliable knock-down power. I'm talking 70 grains of FF & 1 1/8 oz shot.

These days, for my Spartan, I load with plastic wads, in plastic hulls, 35 grains FF & 1 oz shot. Yeah, there is the plastic "snot" thing, but my barrels are chrome-lined and it's pretty easy to clean.

Happy blasting!

I've loaded a 515 dia. (50-70 ) bullet in the 28 ga. Like this: 450 gr. bullet a little heavier than one oz., load with Unique 14 gr. one 28 ga. 1/4' fiber wad. Black powder works a whole lot better; 90 gr. BP stack enough wads so that the bullet is at the right height for crimping. This load will flatten any deer!

Joe (HobbyGuy..): I just saw this post. I was in Google looking for info about some old Alcan aluminum hulls and this link turned up.
By all means contact Ballistic Products Inc., as was suggested. They have everything that you need, including a brochure about loading brass shotshells.
Brass hulls are remarkably easy to reload and, properly assembled, produce nice patterns. Mostly, I load them with BP - 2 3/4drams of FFg (about 85grs.), 1 1/8oz. shot, and a wad column of an overpowder card, ONE half inch fiber wad, shot, an overshot card glued in with either Devcon cement or waterglass.
I need my load book to recall the smokeless loads; they use Red Dot; I'll have to look up how much - about 18grs as I recall. The wad column uses TWO half inch wads.
Pete

Also - the old fiber wad columns need pressure to perform optimally. Use a bathroom scale and a dowel about 12ga in dia. push down on the wad column after it is in the hulls and before you drop in the shot. Push down with about 60-70lbs pressure.
Pete

Just saw this thread today. I loaded all brass hulls for about 15 years starting back in the late 50's. The hulls never wore out and I still have some today. I had 100 Alcan 20 ga hulls that used the now obsolete Remmington 57 primer. The 12 gauge hulls used large pistol primers. I used Alcan card and fiber wads. A top wad and water glass sealed the shell. Whatever was published for regular hulls was supposed to be fine for the brass hulls according to the literature at the time. Don't know why it would be different today as the powder and primers are basically the same. In the 12 gauge, I used Red Dot for targets and Herco for heavier loads. In the 20 I used Unique and Herco.

I started this post 4 years ago and just wanted to thank all who have contributed any info in response! Due to the the limited response regarding smokeless powder loads I guess my brass shotshells project may never be completely successful, at least not with all the Magtech shells and Circlefly wads and smokeless in modern shotguns!

I have plenty of black powder, and am guessing I could load same with reasonable success but really don't want to deal with the mess and immediate cleanup required. With lower hydroscopic and sulfur problems, what about some of the many "new" BP substitutes? Any new info on smokeless loads?

I'm not a serious clay shooter and will go out and buy light factory loads for same, but I've located and purchased in .410, 20 & 12ga. tools, brass and proper wads for enough hunting loads to last the rest of my life - just feeling frustrated that this has become a bit of a stumbling block! A couple years ago I started converting one of my doubles to a 30-40 Krag SxS rifle (w/fitted 20ga. brl set too) and when finished plan to also build either a 45-90 or 50-110 DR w/fitted 12ga. brl set - really want all brass shotshells in my hard cases along with my traditional rifle ammo - HELP!

Thanks Again, Joe

Try 18grs of Red Dot with an OP wad, two fiber wads, and 1 to 1 1/8 ounces of shot. finish with an overshot card. Glue the card in with Devcon cement. Then go and pattern. Remember to press the wads down before the shot goes in.
They'll work. (11ga. wads for 12ga brass.)
Pete

I load 444 marlin brass in my NEF 45/410. I punch out the old primers, prime with large pistol primers. I use lee dipper 1.0cc which throws 13.5 gr 2400. Seat a red waa410hs wad, and seat firmly with a dowel. Next use a lee dipper 2.5cc which throws one half ounce of #7.5 shot. I cut overshot wad out of a walmart donut carton, seat firmly with the dowel, then run a bead of soft sealant around inside of the wad. I have never had a blooper, and it patterns well. A great small game load, and simple to load. I have never resized a case yet.

I have worked up the following loads for my NEF 45LC/.410:

Using 9.3 X 74R Norma cases blown out to the NEF chamber size(.480").
CCI magnum pistol primers
28.0 gr H4198 (You could get more velocity with more powder but the pattern goes to heck)
A 7/16" diameter overpowder card cut from a plastic milk jug (.410 wads are too small)
A generous tuft of cotton (about a half of a cotton ball)
Ballistic Products .410 shot cup with the petals cut open at the top, seated hard by hand with a 7/16" dowel.
7/8 oz #6 shot with a dipper of BPI buffer.
A 7/16" diameter plastic overshot card sealed with waterglass

The above leaves a 20" tube at 1170 fps and has a usable pattern out to 20-25 yards with the choke tube installed. At best the choke would be classed as "Modified", more like "Imp. Cyl". This load has taken a pheasant and numerous rabbits.

Using blown out Remington, Winchester and surplus .303 British cases.
CCI magnum pistol primers
15.2 gr W296
A 7/16" diameter overpowder card cut from a plastic milk jug (.410 wads are too small)
A pinch of cotton (about a third of a cotton ball)
WAA410HS wad seated lightly by hand with a 7/16" dowel.
1/2 oz #9 shot.
A 7/16" diameter plastic overshot card sealed with waterglass

This makes 1250fps from my gun and is quite effective in breaking clay. The weapon is equipped with a Tasco 1.5 x 4.5 scope. At 1.5 it works pretty well for wing shooting.

I started the exercise in an attempt to improve the consistency of the weapon when used as a rifle. A .45LC case starts the bullet too far away from the rifling to achieve any sort of accuracy. The 3" long 9.3 X 74R case puts the bullet right at the forcing cone. This helps accuracy plus gives a case capacity approximately equal to the 45-110. I call it my 11.4 X 74R.

I have three rifle recipes worked up for this weapon. There is no published data for this cartridge so I started with loads listed for the 45-70 and 45-90 then worked my way up. I am not sure about the upper pressure limit on the gun. I have tried 30,000 psi .45LC loads in the NEF chamber with no ill effect but for safety have tried to stay below 25,000 psi. As always; what is safe for my gun may not be safe in yours so please use caution.

230 gr RNFMJ .451" Midway bulk bullet, 14.8 gr Unique, CCI Large pistol primer 1420 fps. This is a low pressure case forming load. It shoots into 4" at 100 yards and is quite pleasant to shoot. It is more than enough for a rabbit and is cheap to shoot.

300 gr JFP .452" Speer, 62.8 gr IMR4064, CCI Large rifle primer, 2050 fps into 2"@100 yards. Recoil approaches painful in the 6.5 lbs. NEF.

370 gr LFPGC .454" CBT, 46.0 gr H4198, CCI Large rifle primer, 1630 fps into 3" @ 100 yards. Stiff recoil. This load penetrated 24" of wet phone books then opened a ragged 6" hole in a piece of 3/4" plywood at the back of the box when exiting the target. For comparison a 170 gr 30-30 tested on the same target could only manage 14" of penetration into the phone books and never touched the wood.

The Norma cases have 20+ shots out of them. They seem none the worse for wear. I annealed them before I fire formed them. It took about 5 shots to fully expand them to the NEF chamber. I annealed them again after the 5th shot. They have been good since. I use a 45 LC Lee Classic loader to size the neck and crimp the bullets.

The .303 British cases have much fewer loading cycles but seem to be equally impervious to the use. Since I do not use them for rifle loads they may last forever.