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  #1  
Old 05-12-2006, 03:21 PM
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Question 00 Shot or Slug - more velocity at 50 yrds?


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Hi Folks!

Happy Mother's Day weekend to you all.

This may be a silly question, but if all other things were equal (same barrel (let's say a 28" smooth bore), same charge, same wad, same mass of load (let's say 1.5 oz), same conditions, which would have higher velocity at 50 yards; a rifled slug or 00 shot? Taking it further, if all things were equal, which would have higher velocity at 50 yards; 00 shot or BB shot (same load weight, same charge, etc).

Thanks and God bless.
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  #2  
Old 05-12-2006, 03:27 PM
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I will guess here. I am guessing that the heavier component will be faster at 50 yards, since 50 yards with any buckshot is losing speed quick and the slug will maintain for a longer distance. So with muzzle velocity the same, the slug should win at 50 yards and your other option would be the 00 buck over the BB at 50 yards. This is just a guess since I really don't know. Maybe I will learn something here in this thread.
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  #3  
Old 05-12-2006, 04:05 PM
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I think Gismo made a good guess based on good science. The B.C. of a slug is better than spoon full of shot. Further the B.C. of a slug is better than one round ball.
I will say that a slug will be going faster at any distance from the muzzle.
Is this a trick question ?
Cheezywan
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  #4  
Old 05-12-2006, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheezywan
I think Gismo made a good guess based on good science. The B.C. of a slug is better than spoon full of shot. Further the B.C. of a slug is better than one round ball.
I will say that a slug will be going faster at any distance from the muzzle.
Is this a trick question ?
Cheezywan
Just one of those things...individually, round ball gets a better BC as it's diameter increases (even though a ball is a ball, so there isn't any shape change). Odd things happen in a cloud of shot..the front ones slow down a bit faster than the middle ones (kind of like "drafting"), kind of peel off, and the swarm kind of turns inside out...at least until they seperate enough to act as individuals. Not much of a difference...but it is demonstratable.

Not too sure of a typical foster slug. Some of them actualy exit the barrel wider than they are long (depending on bore diameter) so I'd not count on them ahving a real great BC
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  #5  
Old 05-12-2006, 04:17 PM
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Hello Gismo and Cheeztwan -

Not a trick question!

And at the risk of answering my own question, I would agree with both of you that the slug should maintain a higher velocity. I guess if you look at the BC of different grain rifle bullets of an identical type and caliber, the heavier bullets have a higher BC. So I guess this should be true of lead balls just the same. I was not sure and thought I would post; I enjoying knowing what others think. I am not infrequently in error of coming to the correct solution...

I was not sure if the smaller surface area and uniformity of the individual 33 cal 00 shot would resist drag more than the slug.

Thanks for your thoughts - and TGIF.
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  #6  
Old 05-12-2006, 04:25 PM
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Ribbonstone - thanks for your comments - that's interesting behavior for the shot. Maybe it's like hanging out behind a semi-truck or on a cycle behind a car - they take all the resistance for you. One can imagine the front of the shot then coming into contact with the pettels behind them and pushing them either back or out radially. Maybe that's why shot spreads so rapidly. I don't pretend to know, just guessing.

Your comments confirm the others' belief that at least 00 shot will have a better BC than BB shot. Whether the slug has a better BC than the 00 shot is still up for grabs perhaps? Mmmm, maybe I'll have to spend some time at the range soon, see what patterns higher at 50 yards. I should be able to do some digging and find shot and slug loads that have similar powder charges and similar (if not identical) load mass and make an empirical observation.

Blessings,
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  #7  
Old 05-12-2006, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acrsaved
Ribbonstone - thanks for your comments - that's interesting behavior for the shot. Maybe it's like hanging out behind a semi-truck or on a cycle behind a car - they take all the resistance for you. One can imagine the front of the shot then coming into contact with the pettels behind them and pushing them either back or out radially. Maybe that's why shot spreads so rapidly. I don't pretend to know, just guessing.

Your comments confirm the others' belief that at least 00 shot will have a better BC than BB shot. Whether the slug has a better BC than the 00 shot is still up for grabs perhaps? Mmmm, maybe I'll have to spend some time at the range soon, see what patterns higher at 50 yards. I should be able to do some digging and find shot and slug loads that have similar powder charges and similar (if not identical) load mass and make an empirical observation.

Blessings,

Been a lot of work down investigating chokes. Some of them actually color coded layers of shot an used high spped cameras to watch it along it's early path. While the shot charge is in a tight swarm, the leading pellets do take the majority of the resistance...slow down faster than the ones following...are pushed out of the way (to kind of peel down the sides) for new shot to take up the lead position.

Eventaully, the shot spreads and the individual pellets react to the wind as expected.

For BC's of round balls, has been a good bit of work with muzzle loaders...although the balls are spinning and acting as individuals, the relationship between BC for .32 and .36 (and larger) balls are pretty well figured out.

Going to have to do a bit of research on-line...am reasonably sure the saboted slug makers have charts showing the flight of the tradtional fosters slugs (which makes the saboted slugs look great)...and that other sites have ballistics for the .75 and .69 caliber round balls used in 1700's muskets....so should be able to get an idea of a .70cal. round ball vs. a Foster's slug if I can find the right sites.
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  #8  
Old 05-12-2006, 07:18 PM
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I suspect that at 50 yards, there won't be much difference, at all. Probably a few FPS, at most.
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  #9  
Old 05-13-2006, 06:12 AM
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A Foster slug is typically 1 ounce.

At MV of 1600 FPS, 50 yard velocity is 1222 FPS, 100 yards 1013 FPS. (Approximately)

00 Buckshot, 1600 fps, 50 yards 1064 FPS, 100 yards 869 FPS. (Again, approximately)

DC
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  #10  
Old 05-13-2006, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMC
A Foster slug is typically 1 ounce.

At MV of 1600 FPS, 50 yard velocity is 1222 FPS, 100 yards 1013 FPS. (Approximately)

00 Buckshot, 1600 fps, 50 yards 1064 FPS, 100 yards 869 FPS. (Again, approximately)

DC

Just doing this on scratch paper, but looks like the Foster's slug has a BC of about .085 and a .693" ball would run about .095.

Someone with a good ballistic calculator correct that for me...too early to be at my mathamatic best.
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  #11  
Old 05-14-2006, 05:14 AM
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00 buckshot doesnt come out round. Ive seen high speed photos that show little pyramids. I always thought the deformed buckshot pulled out of deer was from hitting the meat but they are already deformed. Wont help the BC any. The newer buffered loads may be different when fired in the special barrels made for buckshot.
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  #12  
Old 05-14-2006, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhead7544
00 buckshot doesnt come out round. Ive seen high speed photos that show little pyramids. I always thought the deformed buckshot pulled out of deer was from hitting the meat but they are already deformed. Wont help the BC any. The newer buffered loads may be different when fired in the special barrels made for buckshot.

The buckshot is deformed from rubbing along the inside of the bore on the way out. They will flatten on the sides.
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  #13  
Old 05-15-2006, 03:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ribbonstone
Just doing this on scratch paper, but looks like the Foster's slug has a BC of about .085 and a .693" ball would run about .095.

Someone with a good ballistic calculator correct that for me...too early to be at my mathamatic best.
A .693" Round Ball - 499.7 Grains, SD=.1486, BC=.096

A factory loaded Foster Slug - 437.5 Grains, SD=.1176, BC=.076
The factory Fosters measure .729", or at least the last Federal shells I cut apart measured that.

A Foster made to fit into a shotcup (like a LEE slug) is .690", 437.5 Grains, SD=.1313, BC=.085.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironhead
00 buckshot doesnt come out round. Ive seen high speed photos that show little pyramids. I always thought the deformed buckshot pulled out of deer was from hitting the meat but they are already deformed. Wont help the BC any. The newer buffered loads may be different when fired in the special barrels made for buckshot.
True, they don't come out as perfect spheres. Any downrange calculations are based on an ideal model. The way I've tried to minimize deformation is to cast the Buckshot from wheelweight and heat treat it. Seems to work pretty good.

BTW, if you buy a box of 00 Buck loads, you probably aren't getting 00 Buck. The Federal shells I cut apart had pellets that measured .317" to .319" - slightly smaller than 0 Buck. Some Remington 000 Buck shells I've dismembered measured a true 000 Buck - .360".

DC
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  #14  
Old 05-15-2006, 07:20 AM
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Morning Gentlemen -

Thank you again for all the great comments; seems to be a consensus that between a Foster slug and 00 shot the slug has more umph at 50 and 100 yards (the BC of the slug being greater than the individual 00 shot).

Between the Foster slug and a round ball of comparable diameter the ball has a greater BC and should have slighter greater umph at 50 and 100 yards.

I picked up 10 boxes of Federal 3" 547gr 1.25 oz rifled slugs. All the same lot. I plan to sight in my 870 SPS SMC/saddle mount/Burris Fullfield II 2.5x20 rig with these and then keep the rest for deer season. I'll use 3.5" #4 shot for gobblers out of the same rig, and then for rabbits as well this fall, but with a looser choke.

Some very interesting comments; thanks!
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