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  #1  
Old 12-19-2006, 08:40 AM
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12 gauge reloads


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I have been reloading on a small scale,for the past 25 years,dove hunts and some skeet shooting without any problems. I have been using a recipe that was given to me by the owner of the business that I purchased the reloader from. Using red dot powder, Winchester 209, waa12 wads, Remington peters blue hull shells and #35 bushing on a mec jr 600. Until recently I have never weighed the powder, did not know I needed to. After weighing about 10 samples and getting a average weight of about 19.5 grains I have gotten a little concern when most of the recipes don’t go over 18.5 grains. Should I back down on my bushing size? What normally happens if you get too much powder?
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  #2  
Old 12-19-2006, 09:37 AM
Jack Monteith's Avatar
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This thread should be in the Shotguns forum, so I'll move it there.

19.5 grains looks over the top for any data I've got here. I'm assuming you're loading 1 1/8 oz. shot with that combo? Did you start with Hercules Red Dot and are you using Alliant Red Dot now? The new stuff is denser and a given bushing will drop a heavier charge. Check out the current MEC charts and figure out which bushing you need. If you've got the chart that came with your 600 Jr. you'll see quite a difference.

http://www.mecreloaders.com/PowderBu...ar/Bushing.asp

Bye
Jack
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  #3  
Old 12-19-2006, 06:12 PM
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I'm not sure which red dot it was. It was about four years old and I just reloaded four boxes which finished it up and threw the container away.
My son has just turned 9 and we have started doing some skeet shooting. I was in the process of buying some more supplies from the skeet range when it was rec. that I weigh the charge to see what it producing, never have done this.
These four boxes is the way I have loaded in the past with no problems, but now that this weighing of the charge has come up its got me concern. Should I trash them?
I plan to go with a different recipe in the future, using hodgon clay. I have three different shells, the blue peters, the green sts and the gold nitro, are these good shells to reload?
By the way my son is not shooting the 12 gauge reloads, only me.

Yes it was 1 1/8 oz shot.
Thanks for the help
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  #4  
Old 12-19-2006, 06:57 PM
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I can't remember offhand when the change over took place. I've still got one Hercules jug, dated 1994. It's got a paper body with tin top and bottom. The Alliant jugs are black plastic and my oldest is dated 1999.

I can't recommend shooting those 19.5 grain loads, even though they might be safe in your gun. Up to you.

The new Remington shells are considered the best for reloading, better than the new Winchesters. The old Winchester AA shells were top notch. Clays has a reputation for spiking pressure with slight overloads. Better weight your charges and go to one bushing under max. Your youngster doesn't need the recoil anyway.

Bye
Jack
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  #5  
Old 12-19-2006, 07:46 PM
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It was the one with the tin top and bottom.
My son is shooting a twenty gauge. When we get enough hulls I plan to purchase a reloader and start reloading some twenty gauges for him, lightest load possible.
Do you rec. something other than Clay? The only reason I was switching is the fellow at the range said there were powders better now than red dot and rec. clay.

Thanks again.
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  #6  
Old 12-19-2006, 08:19 PM
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Clays has a good reputation in light 12 gauge loads. You just have to stay within it's design envelope. There isn't any data for it in 20 gauge, too fast. I use Unique in 20 gauge and Hodgdon Universal is similar. We had a problem with a Beretta 301 cycling until we went to the even slower 800-X. It's a pain to meter, but it worked with a load well under max and we started out about 100 kids on shotsguns with it.

Just looked at the old MEC charts again. They say 19.6 grains of old Red Dot. The new chart says 21.3 grains of new Red Dot. I'd say that wouldn't be healthy at all.

Here's Hodgdon's shotgun data. Use that scale!

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/shotshel/index.php

Bye
Jack

Last edited by Jack Monteith; 12-20-2006 at 07:25 AM.
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  #7  
Old 12-20-2006, 06:05 AM
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I use Universal Clays for both 20 guage and 28 guage reloads. Loads for 20 guage Wincnester and Remington hulls are listed on the 8 lb container.

I agree that the Remington STS hulls are far superior th the NEW Winchester AA hulls. The Gold Nitro is the same hull as the STS just a different color, Last weekend some of us at a gun club dicussed problems with the new Winchester AA 2 piece hulls as opposed to the old compression formed ones. The Remington "Gun Club" hulls are also good to reload a few times though not as durable as the STS. The blue peters is also good, but I don't think it is still made.

I would open one of the shells that you think may be overloaded and weigh the powder.

I used the old Red Dot for many years, but swithched to 700X before the new Red Dot came out because the old Red Dot was too dirty. I am currently considering switching to a slower powder for my 12 guage handicap loads to reduce the sharpnesss of the recoil.

For 16 yard trap shooting, I've gone to 1 oz loads and my average has improved. I still use 1 1/8 oz for handicap and the second shot in doubles. Heavy loads are not necessary for short yardage and may even be detrimental because of the heavier recoil. When you get back close to the 27 yard line, you may want heavier loads, but by then you probably won't be asking for advice except from those you know can shoot better than you from the long yardages.
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  #8  
Old 12-20-2006, 06:09 AM
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My old Hercules loading book lists Red Dot loads for 1.125oz of shot up to 22.5gr depending on the hull & wad column, most loads fall in the 18gr to 20.5gr range.

From what I see of the current Alliant data, your 19.5gr charge in those hulls may be running a little on the warm side depending on what primer you used but I doubt they'll be a problem. If I read your post right, you've been shooting them for some 25 years now....

Back when I was young, dumb and lacking of info, I built some impressive performance loads in all plastic win OOB & slug hulls using Blue Dot, 1.5oz of shot and a nitro/fiber wad column. Little did I know at the time these were producing pressures normally associated with 3.5" mag loads of today. As years passes, I found much lighter loads work far better for wing shooting and haven't gone back to the heavies. I shot hundreds of those heavy loads, of course in good strong guns with no ill effects but that doesn't make it right. I still have a few boxes of those heavies left just in case I want to use them for something but each hull is clearly marked "excessive pressure - unsafe".

Back in the 1950's, Remington offered their 2.75" 12ga Express paper hulls stuffed with 1.5oz of shot and a dram equivalent of 4. In the late 1970's someone gave my old man a few cases of these and not knowing better to save them in their pristine condition, we shot them up on clays because they didn't pattern for crap.

I am by no means condoning the use of unsafe ammo but if I were in your position, having used these loads for many years, if there's no signs of pressure problems, I'd run out what you have, destroy the old hulls and build a proper load from there on out with new hulls. If you noted any hint of pressure problems, loose primer pockets, deformation of the base or anything else, I would not chance it, cut them up, save the shot & wads, burn off the powder and snap the primers off.
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  #9  
Old 12-20-2006, 12:09 PM
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Markkw wrote
I am by no means condoning the use of unsafe ammo but if I were in your position, having used these loads for many years, if there's no signs of pressure problems, I'd run out what you have, destroy the old hulls and build a proper load from there on out with new hulls. If you noted any hint of pressure problems, loose primer pockets, deformation of the base or anything else, I would not chance it, cut them up, save the shot & wads, burn off the powder and snap the primers off.



I will take your advice. I have been using this load for some time now on a small scale, with no problems. It only became a concern when someone rec. I weigh the powder.
Once these are gone I plan to start new with something a little
lighter.
The blue peters I have are old but have performed well, hopefully the STS will be as good.
I never knew there were so many variables that have to be considered in shell reloading. I was given a recipe and stayed with it, only needed to reload 12 gauge. I have reloaded a lot of different type of shells with the same recipe; buckshot, federal, remington black shells, didn't know it made any difference what type of shell.
Thanks for all the help.
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  #10  
Old 12-20-2006, 05:58 PM
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If you really start comparing loads, you'll find that simply using a different primer or wad can change the pressure in the same hull a lot. Win AA hull simply going from an AA was to a Federal wad with the same powder, same shot, same primer increases the pressure like 800 psi in one particular load.

If you're really serious about load building, consider dropping to a 1oz load using a duplex shot charge. If you search "duplex shot" you'll find some of my posts on the subject. If you have any specific questions on my methods, feel free to email me directly: [email protected]
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