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  #21  
Old 12-01-2006, 01:39 PM
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Carpooler,

The 400 Whelen's problem wasn't so much lack of shoulder for headspace, as a failure of 'smiths to get the proper size on the shoulder when doing the conversions .....the 400 was different than the other Whelen wildcats.

quote.....
The biggest challenge I faced in learning about the .400 was to find and record chamber dimensions of the older original rifles. Although it was not a popular cartridge there have been several .400's made over the last 78 years. Most of the problems with this cartridge I have been able to trace to one factor. The. 30-06, .25 Whelen (.25-06), .35 Whelen and .38 Whelen all have a shoulder diameter of .441. "The ORIGINAL .400 Whelen shoulder is .458". When and how this information got lost to modern riflemen and writers I have no idea. Many 400's that were made in later years for which I have measurements have the .441" shoulder; this is also true of many resizing dies.

......unquote

http://www.z-hat.com/smashing_the_headspace_myth.htm

Lobo in West Virginia
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  #22  
Old 12-01-2006, 06:14 PM
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Thanx for the feedback Lobo, I really don't want to get off on the 400 Whelen, just used it, as an example. The serious point is now there are two cartridges stamped 444Marlin, of two different lengths. 2.3", and now 2.05". This round is loaded exclusively in tube magazine rifles, and how in heck are you going to roll crimp the bullets in the shorty.
I still say, a high adrenaline encounter, with a tube magazine rifle, necessitates max. S.A.A.M.I. chambers, for reliability. The 307Win. and 356Win, go one step further. They are excessively long, and the brass, blows forward to reduce binding the bolt. This comes down from the old Canadian Ross straight pull bolts. With my blown out 44 wildcat, there is no shoulder to blow forwards, anyway. Without the shoulder, I also reclaim the 51gr. powder capacity of the 308Win. case. In the commercial Win rounds, the powder capacity is more like that of the venerable 300 Sav. My mold was designed to not intrude a G.C. bullet, into the belly of a 44-40 case, to minimize lube contamination, on hot summer days. I never did get the long bullet 44WCF to feed through my 94 Win. rebarrel job. The present tuning of the original guides and carrier, isn't up to serious work, so I purchased a bag of BB gizzens from Browning Win. parts, in St. Louis, for about $60. I have to wait until after hunting season to get a gunsmith here to install and retro-fit things. My son's centenial BB 307, feeds my rounds licketty split, but, of course, they only go half way into his 307 chamber.
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  #23  
Old 12-02-2006, 04:14 PM
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Carpooler,

I don't have the spec's or cartridges to measure.... I'm wondering if the shortened Evo case actually gives a slightly shorter COL and creates a freebore situation like Weatherby uses to get extra fps out of their rifles/ammo.

Just a thought..... :-)

I've used a 336 in .35 Rem to hunt with for years with good success. A few years back, I shot a nice buck ..... about 140 pounds field dressed...... that simply folded up and fell where it was standing. On inspection, my bullet had cut a perfect keyhole going in the right side just behind the shoulder, and no exit wound. The internal damage was significantly more than I was used to seeing. I've been "speculating" about a larger caliber conversion on my rifle ever since. One of these days! :-)

Lobo in West Virginia
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  #24  
Old 12-03-2006, 05:34 AM
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Carpool,

Do you have a 44 Marsh done up in a Marlin 336??

What kind of performance are you getting?

Lobo in West Virginia
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  #25  
Old 12-03-2006, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Lobo
Carpool,

Do you have a 44 Marsh done up in a Marlin 336??

What kind of performance are you getting?

Lobo in West Virginia
Hi Lobo,
My Marsh is a post 64, Mdl. 94 carb..
I'm using a softy 330gr. P&C custom slug. It drops at 300gr. of lyman #2. Softies like to build pressures real quick, so I'm not ready to publish loads. I haven't tried a marlin 336, but got tired of waiting for Marlin to get it's act together on a decent twist, so I did it myself. I fiddled with one of my son's 307 empties, and discovered that my custom slug made a neat 30-30 OAL cartridge that worked slick through his 94 BB carbine. Unfortuantely I still have to double stroke my 94 to get em to chamber. Drop is running about 38" at 300yds, with a 100yd zero. My barrel is from a rebore job at John Taylor's shop at Spangle before he moved to West. Wash.. He did the rifling pattern for my custom slug. It's 1 in 20, but with spindly lands and maybe a smidge, I believe 4285, less than nominal 44 specs. With the Marlin. 336, you might consider short chambering with a 444 reamer, like my gunsmith did for me, but since the evo case is 52MM, about one rim's thickness longer than my Marsh, which is nominal 308W. depth, (51MM). Personally, I'd buy a Win or Mar. 444, and have the barrel set back and short chambered. I always felt Marlin flubbed it, putting a too long case, necessitating a stubby pistol bullet, in their mdl. 444 rifles. I think you'll find a world of trouble in adapting a 336. And Marlin won't rebarrel one of the old micro groove barrels with their newbie without making you pay for retrofitting the new model carrier, making it more realistic, to just buy one of the brand new medford pattern 444's. My rifle chamber has the original Marlin throating, so my slugs can't have a full dia shank prodruding from the case too far. The new evo bullets have a second cannelure close to their bases, but this make an OAL that's too long, by the length of the red plastic tip, for my 94's action window. If I was to shorten my Marsh, then I'd be in the same boat as the folks trying to reload the evo cases with std.444 dies. Gotta have that roll crimp for the tube mag., esp. with the recoil being generated. As to why go to this trouble, I took three loaded rounds to test the rifle, right out of my gunsmith's back shop door. Started with 23gr. IMR 4227, over a max 44Mag.load. with 200 j., 240j., and my 330gr P&C, GC. softy. The cat started to just show her claws with the 240, and the 330, raised the curtain. All went right where they were pointed at about 100yds. I've worked up 4 grs. of the 4227, and with mag primers, 748, kicks dust up as far as I can hold down the little carbine. I walked them up to hit a steel ram at the range, with a spotter. and by sighting about twelve inches high at 100, or zeroing at 200yds, this soft bullet extends the little 94 carb. effective range out to 300+ yds. I feel it maximizes the 94 package.
Being a lefty, I really don't like looking down the AE action and seeing the glint of the brass rim, in a chambered round. I guess I'll stick to the older top ejectors. Again, with the short chambered metford 444 Mar., you could use a bullet similar to mine, and the action would be strong enouth to handle the evos., which mine isn't. I'm sticking to 35KCUP. Max.. Not chambering the stubby pistol bullets, with the full length case, isn't the worst ending, IMO. If you set back a Mar. bbl.. Dave Davison can do you a set of dies for $100, which is about a third of Redding's or RCBS's tariffs. I did have my gunsmith shorten up a Lee Fact. Crimp die,(collet style) in 444 to the 51MM Marsh length, and it really helps. But Mr. Davison puts a beautiful roll crimp in his seater die. Good luck and thanx for the feedback. One thing I haven't got to, is trying an empty Marsh case in a Marlin, to see if the extractors will handle the 356BB rims. If the Browning Int. site would sell those 94 444's back into the U.S., from across the Pond, then shortchambering a barrel setback, and they all headspace on the rims alone, would give a right handed gent, the ultimate 44 lever riflegun, carbine. Carpooler.

Last edited by carpooler; 12-03-2006 at 01:31 PM.
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  #26  
Old 12-04-2006, 07:55 PM
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Post

Carpooler,

Way back when Linebaugh was first turning out 5-shot, 45 cal revolvers, he sent one to Ross Seyfried with a load that gave a .452 inch, 345 grain bullet at 1550 fps.....approx. This load Mr. Seyfried used to shoot hardcast lead at cape buffalo quite successfully. I always thought a similar load from a rifle would certainly kill anything I'd ever shoot at!!

A 310 grain, .429 inch bullet would have essentially the same sectional density, and if I could get 1800 fps would have relatively the sameTaylor Knock Out ( 35 vs 34), and the 429 would actually have more K-Energy.

Again......one of these days!

Lobo in West Virginia
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  #27  
Old 12-09-2006, 07:25 PM
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stock splitters

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Lobo
Carpooler,

Way back when Linebaugh was first turning out 5-shot, 45 cal revolvers, he sent one to Ross Seyfried with a load that gave a .452 inch, 345 grain bullet at 1550 fps.....approx. This load Mr. Seyfried used to shoot hardcast lead at cape buffalo quite successfully. I always thought a similar load from a rifle would certainly kill anything I'd ever shoot at!!

A 310 grain, .429 inch bullet would have essentially the same sectional density, and if I could get 1800 fps would have relatively the sameTaylor Knock Out ( 35 vs 34), and the 429 would actually have more K-Energy.

Again......one of these days!

Lobo in West Virginia
Thanx for the Taylor K.O. figures. Two points here. 1. I passed on a 416X350Rem Mag. carb., back in the early seventies. One of the well known cougar hunters from the Oro Fino area, who wrote for the Wolfe publications, had put it up, on consignment. The clerk warned me that this puppy had split it's stock two times and had been glued back together three times. 2. Using softy lead slugs, per Lyman's suggestd hunting alloys, gives something I call Angular Ballistical Enhancement. This is the football shaped wound channel in ballistic gelatin. The more the slug rivets out into the classic mushroom, the more spherical this wound channel, becomes. My straight cased 44 Marsh, or a 375X356Win.BB, isn't going to kick you back over the last ridge, and with a long jacketed or cast slug, the proper twist is going to provide the riveting momemtum, in the wound channel. By not putting 100gr. of powder in these cases, one can steepen the twist up to 1 in 8, or 1 in 9, inches. In any carbine, 300yds, is really reaching, except maybe in the 6.5MM Rem Mag. Useless for hunting with cast slugs, but a real dragon slayer, in the crags of the Bitteroots, with the correct jacketed bullets. I really don't see a use for your 375x 74MM rimmed. That has Africa written all ove it. A rifle heavy enough to use it, won't carry at high altitudes, and a carbine, is going to split stocks. The 6.5MM Rem Mag. has already filled this niche. You just gotta get beyond time in flight, problems, which after all, are mostly mental. Thanx for the dialogue. Carpooler
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