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  #1  
Old 02-15-2007, 07:21 PM
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.25-10 Winchester caliber?


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Hi,
I bet most of you have never seen a .25-10 Winchester rifle...I saw one at a pawn shop in Texas. Is was in very good shape, considering that it was supposed to be manufactured at the end of the 1900's. I 've heard of .25-20, ammo is still available, but not a 25-10. It had double trigger system, take down lever action, full octagon barrel, and able to be dissasembled with a screw at the right side of the receiver, similar to the Stevens Favorite model 17 from the 1920's. Some kind of an old sniper open sight rifle. Just a nice good piece of war fare. Have any of you seen one of those?
KHAN
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  #2  
Old 02-15-2007, 07:32 PM
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Haven't seen that particular gun...but brain cells are starting to light up...believe the .25Stevens Rimfire was often marked as the .25-10 when chambered in early Winchester's (becasue Winchester just didn't want to stamp another maker's name, even a caliber name, on their barrels).
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  #3  
Old 02-15-2007, 07:34 PM
Jack Monteith's Avatar
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That's a new one on me. Is it a shortened .25-20 Winchester, .25-20 Single Shot or centrefire version of a .25 Stevens rimfire?

Bye
Jack
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  #4  
Old 02-16-2007, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ribbonstone
Haven't seen that particular gun...but brain cells are starting to light up...believe the .25Stevens Rimfire was often marked as the .25-10 when chambered in early Winchester's (becasue Winchester just didn't want to stamp another maker's name, even a caliber name, on their barrels).
It makes sense, maybe that is the case. Same cartdrige with another name. Mostly because it resembles a Stevens Model 17 rifle...I'll keep searching. Thanks
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  #5  
Old 02-16-2007, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Monteith
That's a new one on me. Is it a shortened .25-20 Winchester, .25-20 Single Shot or centrefire version of a .25 Stevens rimfire?

Bye
Jack
Well, I don't know. I had never heard, and of course never seen such ammo, not even it's blueprint. But as far as I remember, I guess the trigger system was designed to hit at the rim, not at the center. I think Ribbonstone's guessing is getting close.
KHAN
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  #6  
Old 02-16-2007, 09:53 AM
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Winchester relabeling the .25 Stevens RF makes sense. They did it to the .32-40 Ballard, 38-55 Ballard and .40-60 Marlin. As they already had a .40-60, they called it the .40-65.

Bye
Jack
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  #7  
Old 02-16-2007, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ribbonstone
Haven't seen that particular gun...but brain cells are starting to light up...believe the .25Stevens Rimfire was often marked as the .25-10 when chambered in early Winchester's (becasue Winchester just didn't want to stamp another maker's name, even a caliber name, on their barrels).
Hey!!
I've just found an article that say that the .25 Stevens Rimfire, made for the Stevens Favorite, and chambered for a .25 caliber 67 grain bullet, with a 10 or 11 grains of blackpowder. We all know that old calibers' "last name" means the powder load in blackpowder measures, such as 30-30, 30-40, and so on. So I think you hit the target and got bull's eye.
KHAN
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  #8  
Old 02-16-2007, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kublai Khan
Hey!!
I've just found an article that say that the .25 Stevens Rimfire, made for the Stevens Favorite, and chambered for a .25 caliber 67 grain bullet, with a 10 or 11 grains of blackpowder. We all know that old calibers' "last name" means the powder load in blackpowder measures, such as 30-30, 30-40, and so on. So I think you hit the target and got bull's eye.
KHAN

Been looking on-line, know I've seen the 25-10 marking on something that was chambered for the .25Stevens.

In old days, some gun makers (mostly Winchester and Colt) realy hated to stamp any maker's name on thier gun besides themselves. That's how we ended up with the .38 Colt New police and the .38 Colt Special (all they did was use a differnt shaped bullet, but those two are identical to the .38S&W and the .38S&W Special).
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  #9  
Old 02-18-2007, 06:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ribbonstone
Been looking on-line, know I've seen the 25-10 marking on something that was chambered for the .25Stevens.

In old days, some gun makers (mostly Winchester and Colt) realy hated to stamp any maker's name on thier gun besides themselves. That's how we ended up with the .38 Colt New police and the .38 Colt Special (all they did was use a differnt shaped bullet, but those two are identical to the .38S&W and the .38S&W Special).
So as those are obolete ammo, that great rifle wolud be just a colectible piece. Un less it`s rechambered. The bad thing is that no modern .25 caliber is rimfired any more. Is there any?
KHAN

Last edited by kublai Khan; 02-18-2007 at 06:10 AM.
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  #10  
Old 02-18-2007, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kublai Khan
So as those are obolete ammo, that great rifle wolud be just a colectible piece. Un less it`s rechambered. The bad thing is that no modern .25 caliber is rimfired any more. Is there any?
KHAN
IF nice enough to be a collectors piece, then consider it unshootable. IF it were a ragged example, solid enough to shoot, but a bit beat up and had some already existing modifications that ruined it for the collector's market, it would be priced reasonably...and it could be modified into a centerfire. But rifles in that beat-up/modified conditon don't normally have decent bores, so they usually get bought for their actions and a whole new rifle build around it.

Would be a bit of work to convert the action from rimfire to centerfire, with the right tooling and skill, amatures have done wonderful jobs...but it's not kitchen-table gunsmithing.
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  #11  
Old 03-04-2007, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ribbonstone
IF nice enough to be a collectors piece, then consider it unshootable. IF it were a ragged example, solid enough to shoot, but a bit beat up and had some already existing modifications that ruined it for the collector's market, it would be priced reasonably...and it could be modified into a centerfire. But rifles in that beat-up/modified conditon don't normally have decent bores, so they usually get bought for their actions and a whole new rifle build around it.

Would be a bit of work to convert the action from rimfire to centerfire, with the right tooling and skill, amatures have done wonderful jobs...but it's not kitchen-table gunsmithing.
I bet that kind of conversion is not an easy job. What a pitty, it's very handsome rifle to use. Maybe if rebarreled to .17 HMR would work, or maybe putting a barrel liner inside the bore would be feasibe. But that's too much money to spend in gunsmithing adventures.
KHAN
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  #12  
Old 07-16-2013, 04:34 PM
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Depends on what you have and what you would like to do.
25 caliber rim-fire blanks are used in construction for powder actuated tools and are available in several different power gradings with both a star crimp (not good for shooting) and roll crimp with a closure wad ( which are possible for shooting). Early Single Shot Target shooters would use separate bullet and cartridge, loading the bullet first so it 'kissed' the rifling, then inserting the 'blank' cartridge that had a wad holding the powder in place. Also some Artillery and Naval Guns used separate powder cartridge and projectiles for ease in selecting loadings in battle, with High Explosive, Armor Piercing, Canister, Illuminating among the choices.
Look around, the powder blanks are usually available in every City.
I have used grade 7 powder blanks in a Ruger Standard Automatic with a blank firing adapter over the muzzle in Military training, when touched off it would shoot a flame out the front and sound like a Much Bigger Cartridge going off, used it in training for Counterinsurgency security. Night Training of Sentries got Very interesting! two to ten quick 'shots' really get's the attention of someone who is not paying proper attention to the job at hand.

Last edited by chevwilliam; 10-06-2013 at 09:02 PM.
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  #13  
Old 08-02-2013, 05:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kublai Khan View Post
Hi,
...it was supposed to be manufactured at the end of the 1900's...
Hey buddy, the end of the 1900s was only 13 years ago!
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  #14  
Old 08-02-2013, 05:16 AM
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We're talking about an antique Winchester rifle in a pawn shop. I can almost guarantee those pawn shop guys have no idea what it is, and there is a huge group of Winchester collectors out there. From other folks' posts concerning the ammo, at best it seems this would be a wall-hanger for you. That might be fine if you're a Winchester collector, but if not I'd wager you can sell it for profit.

To sum up: It's an antique Winchester rifle in a pawn shop. Buy it.
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  #15  
Old 08-27-2013, 06:32 AM
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Another possible way to get it Shooting is to use Adapter casings and .22 Caliber Blanks to set off BP loadings behind suitable weight bullets, that would allow pre-loading the 'cartridge' and just inserting them at the range, insuring that the rim of the blank was aligned with the firing pin of course. I know "Dixie Gun Works" sells various calibers of the adapters but I do not know if they carry the .25 Caliber ones.

As the adapters are machined from hard Brass Rod, it would be possible to make some to use either .22 or .25 caliber blanks as 'primer/charge items. Based upon the measurements i did on a .27 Cal. Powder Tool Load and a .22 Cal one, I would guess the .25 Cal Tool Load is about .248" to .250" diameter, which would leave .075" or so to use for an adapter wall. The rim diameter would allow use 'centered in the adapter rather than offset to the side, like the DGW .32 Long RF Adapters.

I agree with others: Buy the Firearm. At worst you resell it later, at best you get a unique gun to "Speak" again.
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  #16  
Old 10-22-2013, 05:26 PM
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I believe the Ballard was .38-56 and the Winchester is .38.55. Used to own a HiWall in .38.55.
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  #17  
Old 01-15-2014, 01:25 PM
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Kublai Khan,
What happened about that Winchester in "25-10 RF" (probably "25-10-67")?
Curious.
Best Regards,
Chev. William
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  #18  
Old 08-21-2014, 10:59 AM
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Something I think will be of interest to all:

I completed Trimming some of the Tubing (9/32" x .014" Wall sized down to .274" OD in a .25ACP sizing die) to length and assembled a pair of 'test' cartridges using a Grade 4 .25 Caliber PTL blank and a 63 grain .258" diameter RFN Lead Bullet.
I pressed the Blank in one end of a trimmed tube and, after belling the other end, seated the bullet using a .25ACP seat/crimp die.
I did run the case in far enough to crimp the case tube to the bullet just at the 'crimp groove' in the bullet.

Wednesday I took the test cartridges to my Gunsmith's shop and we temporarily assembled my strengthened pivots 1894 Stevens Action to a 'way to much head space old Stevens '.25 Stevens' Barrel. It ended up with about .080" head space form breech face to cartridge end when seated in the barrel.

This is a deliberate test to see if the tubing is suitable for continued use as a cartridge case.

The Cartridge was fired successfully.
The Blank moved back in the tube as both moved back in the chamber toward the Breech face.
The 'unsupported' blank body just forward of the original rim 'ballooned' out to form a second 'rim'.
The original Rim 'Ballooned out until it formed a "T" shaped vent hole in the upper section.
The Bullet exited the barrel.
The Fired tube case showed expansion to fit the Chamber, growing from a .274" OD before firing to a .282" OD after firing.
The Blank end had a slight 'Bell' to it.
The Bullet end still had the Crimp in it, so the bullet left with a reduced diameter 'heel' I presume.
In spite of the Venting, my gunsmith reported a 'loud muzzle blast' or 'report' so the venting was near the end of bullet travel within the barrel.
It appears the edges of the tear 'vent' were rolled away rather than bit being torn off.
No detectable damage was found in the 1894 Stevens Action, the Breech Block face is still perpendicular to the Barrel center line and at the same distance from breech face to Rear face of Receiver Barrel Socket, pivots are still straight and linkage is tight.

Conclusions:
The Tubing is adequate for use as an Adapter Case between .25 Cal PTL Blanks (of nominal .248" OD) to .25 Stevens rifle chambers ( the original cartridge was .276" diameter and the worn chambers about .283" to 284" diameter).
The tubing either should not be crimped to the bullet OR the tubing 'neck should be reamed to reduce the .014" wall to something around .008" to .009" thickness.
The Blank's wall failed rather than the tubing wall, and at that only after being greatly distorted due to the excess head space of the experiment.
Normal Head space provisions would most likely not have caused the blank rim to fail as it did in this experiment, since the Blank moved to the rear far enough so that the original rim was completely outside the design chamber rim rebate.

Best Regards,
Chev. William
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  #19  
Old 09-02-2014, 05:34 PM
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I am happy to report that as of September 1st, 2014; the "25-10 Halsted/25-10 Center Fire" has been added to "Ammoguide International's" Cartridge Master Data base.
IT is also called the "25 Stevens Center fire" by Mr. Halsted.

No defined loads yet, but I am sure that will change in the future.

This is a Cartridge designed to "replace" the .25 Stevens RF/25-10 RF cartridges but does require conversion to Center fire of the Rifles involved.

Best regards,
Chev William

Last edited by chevwilliam; 09-10-2014 at 04:27 PM.
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  #20  
Old 09-10-2014, 04:36 PM
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I know the .25-10 Halsted has been listed with a Bullet diameter fo .257" but I believe the original Bore and Groove diameters of ".25-10 RF" Chambered rifles were more suited for .250" to .253" diameter bullets.

My own Stevens ".25 Stevens RF" Chambered Barrels all 'Slug' around .249" to .252" Groove diameters.

Chev. William
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