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  #1  
Old 09-01-2008, 08:04 PM
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45-70 or 458 Ruger #1 light loads?


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Has anyone tried this or is willing to try these loads?

I have gotten the bug to get a Ruger No1 that makes a big hole in things, but I am no fan of recoil or retina detachment. I am beginning to get brittle -- nowhere near as elastic as I was in my 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, etc.

I thought "45-70" lightly loaded might be good.
Then, for some reason I thought 458 Win Mag. might be OK too.
I have been shooting Hodgdon's cowboy shoot powder, Trail Boss, for about a year in my 44 mag with 250 grain lead bullets and enjoying it very much. Big noise, mild recoil, big hole, and pretty accurate and consistent. And it is impossible to load a double shot of powder.
So I thought, "I wonder if?"
On the Hodgdon data charts online they have loads for both the 45-70 and 458 using Trail Boss under a 405 grain lead bullet -- probably a good choice bullet.
Now, here is the revelation: according to Hodgdon, here is what Trail Boss and a 405 gr lead will do:

Trapdoor load for 45-70 Starting load of 12 gr TB yields 971 fps and 24,500 CUP
Max load of 13 gr TB yields 1007 fps and 25,600 CUP

Here's the Hodgdon 458 Win Mag Trail Boss load with a 405 grain lead bullet:
Starting load of 18 gr TB yields 1040 fps and only 14,500 CUP!!
Max load of 21 gr TB yields 1082 fps and only 17,000 CUP!!!

I have no idea why the 458 with more powder and speed would have a lot less CUP than the 45-70, but it sounds like the 458 Win Mag with the above loads would be a shoulder friendly fun shooter.
Any comments????
Thanks
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  #2  
Old 09-01-2008, 08:10 PM
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If your 44 mag is a rifle why not just keep shooting it. Your not talking any difference in performance going to the 45-70 or 458 on game and you already have the 44 mag.

I've killed a lot of black bear and deer with the 44 mag and it does a great job. It does look like the loads you mentioned would be shoulder friendly given a decent weight gun.

I shoot a Ruger #1, but in 243. It's shoulder friendly but not coyote friendly at all.
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  #3  
Old 09-02-2008, 12:31 PM
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any load for a 45-70 will work in the 458 win mag or 458 lott. As for the last two mentioned i have found a real shouler friendly load that uses 9 grains of unique and a 457 round ball. After you shoot there is no need to re-size the case just re-prime powder and seat the ball half in by hand. This load has taken black bear and hogs over hounds for me and it is also great for coyote and groundhog at closer ranges. Thru my ruger #1 458 lott it groups about 1 inch give or take at 50 yards. This is just another idea.
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  #4  
Old 09-05-2008, 10:55 AM
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Greenhorn

I had the same idea and purchased a Handi in 45-70. I initially tried 300JHP at about 1800fps (recommended on some thread). I loaded only 10 rounds and never did it again. My crowns are too valuable. I have had good luck with Reloader 7 since the volume is substantial for a normal load and fills up the case better than Unique, for example. I have tried dacron filler and found no difference in accuracy. The Lyman reloading book has some good loads for "Rx7" in the "Trapdoor" section of the 45-70. I use cast bullets made from wheel weights in both 325 and 410gr with Lee molds. some rifles work better with sized bullets and some without. I use a Lee resizer and have used their Alox for years with great success with all kinds of cast bullets. Have fun - Shoot cheap
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  #5  
Old 09-05-2008, 12:39 PM
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A 45-70 can be loaded light to around 1400 or 1500 fps with hard cast (anywhere from 350gr to 425gr) with no leading. Lead bullets are a real pussy cat to shoot at these speeds, but are the hammer of Thor on game, especially with a broad flat nose with just enough ogive to allow it to load properly. Comparable kick to a 44mag carbine, but closer to a .458 win in terms of game taking ability. Granted I have a 26" barrel and a Pachmayr recoil pad. The longer barrel of the cowboy allows me to load a bit lighter to achieve that speed.
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  #6  
Old 09-05-2008, 04:16 PM
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You live in Florida. I live in Iowa.
I have shot both and own neither. Of the two, I would choose a 45-70 because it is an old time classic big bore cartridge that can flat kick butt on anything that I would shoot. It realy is "enough" for any critter that I can imagine with a well placed shot from a dedicated hunter. Even at black powder speeds. Those big,slow,heavy,stupid bullets are very predictable even in high wind conditions if you have a decient load.

Ruger #1 (or #3) is a good platform for either cartridge.

All the Winchester 458 offers me is more range with the same bullet. If you need that, go for it.

Cheezywan
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  #7  
Old 09-05-2008, 06:42 PM
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Keep in mind that the .458 Win Mag chamber is designed with quite a bit of freebore to keep pressures down; my Mark X had at least half an inch from the case mouth to the origin of the rifling.

They might not all, but that much bullet jump may not be helpful with cast bullets and light loads. I'm sure it could be done but suspect it would be a simpler proposition with a more conventional throat / leade.

More cast bullet data availabe for the .45-70, I'd suspect.

Good luck however it turns out....
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  #8  
Old 09-05-2008, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Keep in mind that the .458 Win Mag chamber is designed with quite a bit of freebore to keep pressures down; my Mark X had at least half an inch from the case mouth to the origin of the rifling.

They might not all, but that much bullet jump may not be helpful with cast bullets and light loads. I'm sure it could be done but suspect it would be a simpler proposition with a more conventional throat / leade.

More cast bullet data availabe for the .45-70, I'd suspect.

Good luck however it turns out....
Mr. weatherby believed in a good bit of free bore in his rifles to give the bullet a running start, maybe he had a good idea i dont know but most rifles dont have so much.From my experience this causes no problem with cast bullets because i have shot win mag cases with cast bullets in my Lott and had no problem but I certainly dont know it all.
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  #9  
Old 09-12-2008, 11:32 AM
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Since I started this, I've been away and you guys got time to post some really good answers.
Faucettb got me thinking. I don't have a rifle, and even though I would like a Ruger #1, I also like having the smallest selection of powders and bullets, but I want more suds with a rifle than 44 mag with Trail Boss powder, which I have gotten to like so much.
I re-read Marshall's articles on hunting with heavy lead and his 444 Marlin series of articles (1100-1200 fps at impact makes whitetails as dead as dead gets.) Things started to add up.
250 grains of lead over Trail Boss in a 444 Marlin should go about 1300 fps and that should be plenty for fun and whitetail hunting up to 100 yards.
I went to an old friend (82 years young and still shooting) and asked him if he has a 444 Marlin in his closet. YES! So with the loaner from my friend, I can use my same .432 BTB bullets (Marshall says .432 is the best) and give it a go before buying a rifle.
I will post results back here after I try it.
Thanks again for your input.
Dave
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  #10  
Old 09-13-2008, 12:38 PM
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In the Ruger #1, the main difference for reloading is the price of the brass. Not too much really. The 458 probably has a larger volumne so the lighter charges will give less pressure. The 45/70 has one advantage in that you could find factory ammo that wont break your shoulder. The 458 would be fun because you dont see very many of them at the range. Six of one and half a dozen of the other. Just my .02.
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  #11  
Old 09-13-2008, 05:06 PM
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I love my #1 45-70

First of all if you get the 45-70 get the book "40 Years with the 45-70" by Paul Mathews. Hed has loads that go from light loads of bullseye that I have used to let a 3 year old pull the trigger on a big gun and kick no more than a 22 to loads that will kill anything on the planet.

I shoot a 11 grains of unique behind a 340 grain lee cast bullet. It's pleasant and accurate.

For a good short range load I paper patch a 230 grain 452 bullet and run the same load of unique.
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  #12  
Old 09-14-2008, 06:09 PM
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I've always thought it would be fun to have a .458 Mag and load it up and down as I pleased. The faster twist should help stabilize some of the heavier bullets, you won't ever have to worry about sufficient brass strength, and otherwise you can load it pretty much like a .45-90, but with a broader range.
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  #13  
Old 09-16-2008, 02:22 PM
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Have throw up a question???? Do You use dacron puff material in your light loads or do you use fine corn meal to keep your rounds from detonating??
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  #14  
Old 09-16-2008, 06:16 PM
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Dave,

I kicked around the same question about 4 1/2 years ago between the .458 and .45/70 Ruger #1. Settled on the .458 and intended to cut a rim cut for the .45/70 which would allow shooting .45/70, .45/90 and .458 from the gun. Haven't done this yet but there was another reason for settling for the .458. I have an arthritic right shoulder as an end result of a joint separation during open heart surgery 12 years ago. Wouldn't it figure I am right handed! The added weight of the .458, about 2#, and the extra 2 inches of barrel were what decided me. Price was the same, and, as it turned out, I got one of the last .458s produced.

I bought this for cast bullets and have shot only a dozen or so rounds loaded with the Speer 400 SP for the .45/70. The rest have been cast bullets. I have shot the gun very little, fewer than 50 rds. in 4 years, and only fired three shots for a group. That group , at 100 yds, measured close to 1/2" with two cutting together. This was a cast Lyman 457193 modified by me to a hollow-point cast 30:1, LBT Blue, dacron filler and 35.0/4759. Chronographs just a little over 1750 fps. SD is only 7. Can't say this is comfortable to shoot, which is part of why it hasn't been shot much, but it is a good one and unaffected by the long throat if that one group it any indicator. The rest of the shots from it have been chronographing, getting on target, and plinking(!!!) at water bottles. Sure not going to wear it out at this rate.

If you are recoil sensitive the H&R Handi Rifle and Marlin 1895 are really too light. My vote is still the Ruger #1 .458 and you can load it any way you want, for any performance level from .45 Colt equivalent to full blown .458 loads.
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  #15  
Old 09-16-2008, 07:45 PM
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Ruger #1 458 rate of twist?

CB Hunter -
I appreciate what you have to say. Gentle is good for me too. I think I have body parts falling off every day, most very quietly, some louder than others.

Does anyone know what the rate of twist is in a 458 Win Mag Ruger No. 1? And was it always the same from beginning to end of the production?

I am going ahead with my plans to try some light loads in my friend's 444 Marlin, and I am also going to see if anyone I know has a 458 Win Mag.

BTW -- I just bought some 444 Marlin Remington brass from Midway and they have a clearance sale on those right now - was $33 per 100 last week and right now it is $29 per 100.
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  #16  
Old 09-17-2008, 04:50 PM
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Dave,

Ruger twist in all .45 rifles is 14" and always has been. I guess I should say "except the .45-70" which is 20" or 22"
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  #17  
Old 09-17-2008, 05:41 PM
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I believe the twist rate on the .458 Mag is 1:14.
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  #18  
Old 09-17-2008, 08:37 PM
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Thank you.
14:1 . . . that really puts a spin on things!
Should be accurate, even at lower speeds.
Dave
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  #19  
Old 02-10-2009, 04:08 PM
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Conclusion

I finally got to try out a bigger diameter, taller rifle cartridge by borrowing a 444 Marlin levergun from a friend.
It was OK. I discovered that .432 290 grain Beartooth bullets loaded on top of a maximum uncompressed charge of Trail Boss powder (about 16 grains) was very pleasant to shoot and pretty accurate, tho' it shot nearly 8 inches high at 50 yards.

I could see that shooting a maximum uncompressed load of Trail Boss (recommended by the technicians at Hodgdon Powders) would be a very nice and gentle load for all the big bores. Check out their data tables for 458 win mag and 45/70 online.

So, I found out. If I was going to go that route I would go with the 458 or 45/70 and Trail Boss powder since I am sure they too would be very gentle shooting and easily flatten a deer or hog within 100 yards.
However, I will go with the suggestion in this thread to drop back to the 44 mag rifle for the deer and hog I hunt. AND I just discovered Ruger is reintroducing their 44/77 bolt gun. I will get one.
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  #20  
Old 02-24-2009, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diego View Post
Have throw up a question???? Do You use dacron puff material in your light loads or do you use fine corn meal to keep your rounds from detonating??
If you are using Unique, you don't need any type of filler. My favorite load for my Win. 1886 TD .45-70 is either a 300 or 400 gr. cast FN and 16 gr. of Unique with a large pistol primer.
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