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  #1  
Old 04-19-2013, 11:55 AM
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"new" stalking rifle


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Picked up this neat small German stalking rifle. It is by Miller&Val Griess of Munich. Started out life as a 22 Winchester center fire, but has had a 22K hornet chamber cut in it. The thing is a poor shooter since the bore is .228 and the hormet is .224.
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"new" stalking rifle-stalking1.jpg   "new" stalking rifle-stalking2.jpg   "new" stalking rifle-stalking3.jpg   "new" stalking rifle-stalking4.jpg   "new" stalking rifle-stalking5.jpg  

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  #2  
Old 04-19-2013, 12:37 PM
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Sweet rifle!

Suppose that barrel is a 1/16 twist. Wonder what they were thinking of when rechambering it? Since there isn't a lot of bullets out there in that diameter, have you considered casting for it? Probably require a custom mold.
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  #3  
Old 04-19-2013, 01:16 PM
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too nice to change anything. as Monty says get a custom cast mold and just enjoy. Love the double sets.
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  #4  
Old 04-19-2013, 07:49 PM
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barrel relining

I was considering having the barrel relined with a .224 liner and rechambered back to a standard 22 Hornet.
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  #5  
Old 04-20-2013, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musketshooter View Post
I was considering having the barrel relined with a .224 liner and rechambered back to a standard 22 Hornet.

Or, you could just buy some .228" bullets (70gr, though) from Buffalo Bore & load:

Buffalo Arms - Product Detail - .228" Diameter 70 Grain Jacketed Bullets Box of 100 - $39.00


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  #6  
Old 04-20-2013, 01:45 PM
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I wouldn't change a thing. Get some .228 bullets and shoot it as is unless it is a poor shooter. Then think about having it relined. Nothing wrong with the K-Hornet, I prefer it my self.

Frank
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  #7  
Old 04-20-2013, 04:39 PM
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I assume it was to be a 22 Savage High Power ???? if not what was the chamber?

The 22 SAvage High Power has that old .228 bullet. It is very popular in Germany. 10 years ago I was in German and ordered a 22 Savage high power in a single barrel rifle. 16 month later it arrived...it was in 222 rem. typical German precsion; and the ejector case rim was not cut as it was to be for a rimmerd case. It is being redone now...wait...wait.

You have two choices, load the hornet with the .228 bullets or change back to the Savage high power. Now, remember the savage case is much larger (more like a 219 Zipper) so not sure what was done if the original barrel had such a large chamber?????
Personally, I'd go to the Savvage high Power, just because it is what was intended. But the simply solution would be to load 228 bullets in the Hornet. If I did that I'd make it a devoted cast bullet shooter.

Sort of depends what you want in power and range?
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  #8  
Old 05-07-2013, 05:26 AM
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It seems a most desirable little rifle, and most likely was originally chambered for the German version of the .22 WCF, known as the 5-6x35R Vierling. The .22 Savage also had a following in Europe, both being excellent for our greyhound-sized roe deer. In the unlikely event that the rifle has somehow been plugged and rechambered for the Savage, thus giving it an undesirably long freebore and chance of an off-centre chamber, I would have a clear conscience about relining and rechambering for the Hornet. Otherwise I would stay with what I'd got.

The Vierling was intermediate in power between the WCF and the Hornet - probably closer to the latter, and jacketed bullets were intended from its inception, in the 1920s. The barrel is probably alloy steel, but even if it is soft, it could be that you intend only the occasional light use which should be acceptable. It is primarily gas erosion which damages a barrel, not metal-to-metal contact. Whoever heard of a barrel worn more towards the muzzle, where the velocity is greatest? It comes where the pressure and heat are greatest.

I have seen published dimensions which suggest that the main chamber was identical. I wouldn't spend a lot or cut metal without verifying this, as they sometimes parrot dimensions one from another. But it may very well be that only the rim recess has been altered. (The Hornet was given a thicker rim to prevent it from being fired in some of the weaker American rifles, or with looser-fitting firing-pins, which had been built for the WCF, although I doubt if you need worry about yours. Many .228 - groove rifles (notably the Savage) used heavier bullets than those of .224, and .223 bullets specially made for the Hornet are always light.) So it might be that the chamber throat has been lengthened too.

If you really want to use cast bullets, I think you would be better off with gas-checks. In such small bullets, it can be hard to cast them with a sharp rear edge all the way around.

I'd be inclined to make a cerrosafe or sulphur chamber cast, to see just what I'd got. The Hornet itself is sometimes hard on brass, with variations in chamber size and that rather tapered shape, which allows the front of the case to be forced forward while the rear is forced rearward. So I would check with the diemakers or a friend who reloads for the Hornet, and see if I could, without modifying the rifle, get a round closely corresponding to its present chamber.

Then I would get the .228 bullets, or make them. One of the items in my white elephant collection is a Corbin die set for making .224 jacketed bullets from .22 rimfire cases, and I also have some which never were loaded, and therefore don't have the firing-pin indentation which is the only rather slight limitation on accuracy with these bullets. If factory .228 bullets are hard to get or expensive, it wouldn't be hard to make or have made something of the kind, or a device to expand .224 bullets.

Here in Google Books is some of what Roy Dunlap has to say about the Vierling, with a Hornet chamber drawing which I trust more than most. I am a long way from my copy at the moment, so I don't know if there is more of some use to you.

http://books.google.com.sa/books?id=...erling&f=false

Congratulations on your rifle. If they were really female, I could be in trouble here.

Last edited by John Wallace; 05-07-2013 at 05:49 AM.
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  #9  
Old 05-08-2013, 05:42 AM
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Barrel marking

Here is a picture of the caliber marking on the barrel. The Ctgs of the World states the bore diameter of the original ctg as .228. I don't think a K Hornet case with a .228 bullet will chamber since the neck would be to tight.
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  #10  
Old 05-08-2013, 10:27 AM
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Ah yes, I missed the K in K Hornet. An original K Hornet chamber probably would be too tight with unaltered brass and .228 bullets, but that isn't necessarily the case with this rifle, which would simply use the original chamber neck diameter. I don't know the diameter in the original .22 WCF, or the bullet diameter it used. But if the Germans adapted it to larger diameter bullets, it is likely they cut the chamber neck to match.

If the chamber neck is too tight with a groove diameter bullet, it isn't that much trouble to neck ream or neck turn the cases. The major reloading companies' catalogues or websites would suggest ways of doing it. You would only do it once, with cases which would last a long time in a rifle you probably won't take to the range every weekend, and it might stack up pretty well against the cost and trouble of doing anything to the chamber.

If you did fancy rechambering, the .22 Savage Hi-power, or any .30-30 head size round, is larger than you really need in a rifle like this. The current but uncommon 5.6x50R, which I have used in a Cadet Martini, is a useful round of Germanic origin, and probably still available from Sellier and Bellot. Or you could use the case with a .222 Remington Magnum or similar dies and chamber reamer. I used to use the .357 Maximum case to make a slightly short-necked rimmed .222. All of these might need a separate neck reamer to accommodate the .228 bullets, though.

I'd be glad to use heavy bullets in a rifle like this, which isn't one that begs for the flattest possible trajectory. But you should check that the rifling is fast enough.
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  #11  
Old 05-09-2013, 06:12 AM
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I think you have misunderstood the size of this rifle. It is very small and "dainty". It would never handle a ctg larger than a 22 Hornet.
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  #12  
Old 05-09-2013, 08:35 AM
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I grasped that it was a bit too dainty for the .30-30 head size used in the .22 Savage, Zipper etc. It sounds like it is pretty much like the British rook rifles. I lined mine, retailed by the Army and Navy Stores and converted at some past date to .410, for the .255 Jeffery, but that is only a rabbit cartridge.

The lining and chambering for standard Hornet is perfectly feasible. Parker-Hale used to reline rifles for it in their Parkerrifling process, and pass the British proof houses' testing. It might have been with a 3/8 tube, rather than the 5/16 sold by Rodman etc. for rimfires nowadays. A gunsmith would silver solder a larger diameter "slug" to the end of the liner, and Track of the Wolf do them in 1/2in. and 3/8in. diameter.

But I don't think there is much point in relining for which is only part-way more authentic than the K Hornet. I doubt if the conversion would make any difference to safety, only to bullet availability. The increased capacity might slightly increase the chamber pressure, but the straighter body of Improved cartridges should cause less of it to fall on the breech face. Again, making a chamber cast is advisable. The standard Hornet would probably have shorter brass life, and that would be more so if the loaded round is a loose fit in the chamber.

I think this might be a rifle with which it would be advisable to fireform standard Hornet cases, plugged with wax or something and no bullet, rather than just shoot a full-power Hornet round. This isn't for safety, but brass life.

It is a pity that the US doesn't have much in the way of game suitable for this rifle. Peccaries, maybe?
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  #13  
Old 05-09-2013, 10:19 AM
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I've run into a lot of Factory Hornet ammo that was loaded with the old .223"dia. bullets of 45 grains, and there is no way that any sort of accuracy can be obtained with them in a .228 barrel. If reloading with .228"dia bullets there should be no problem with the neck being too tight, because if the barrel was re-chambered to the Hornet the neck would still be for the .228 dia. bullet. The Hornet is based on the original .22 Winchester Center Fire, so the case length would remain the same, thus the chamber should have sufficient neck diameter to use the .228"dia bullets.

If it were my rifle, I would load .228"dia. bullets and enjoy it. I'm sure there would be a marked improvement in accuracy loaded with properly sized bullets.

I know one elderly gentleman locally who hunts White Tails with a Hornet and never fails to get his deer every year. I asked him how many he lost with the little cartridge. His answer was, "None, just get close enough or don't take the shot."


Lee
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  #14  
Old 05-11-2013, 11:25 PM
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The above is almost certainly true with jacketed loads. There is one possible exception, though. .224 cast bullets may expand to fill the bore, and may do so concentrically enough to retain accuracy. So the potential for a practice or small game load is there, if a few bullets can be obtained for testing before laying out money on a mould. .228 moulds are special order from people like NEI Handtools, Inc , and Lee etc. are a lot cheaper.

I've never shot a whitetail, although I saw Errol Flynn carry one into the Sheriff of Nottingham's castle once. I think the Hornet can kill very nearly anything, in ideal circumstances, but I can understand its being illegal for deer in many jurisdictions.
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