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  #1  
Old 09-30-2004, 07:25 PM
SMK SMK is offline
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25-35 ackley


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Hello everyone. I am considering rebarreling a Marlin 336 to 25-35 ackley improved 40 degree. Would the sharp 40 degree shoulder cause any feeding problems ? I see there is a 25-35 tomcat for example, which only has a 35 degree shoulder and a longer neck. Would this feed better ? I don't think I need the longer neck for any reason - I plan on only shooting jacketed bullets as fast as I can push them in this gun and don't have to worry about protecting the sides of a cast bullet. I think I can more easily find dies and a reamer for the ackley and it looks like it is maybe the highest capacity, so I would like to stick with it if I can but I see there are several other 30-30 based 25 caliber wildcats out there and would consider one if there is a problem with the ackley in a 336. Any thoughts?
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Old 09-30-2004, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMK
Hello everyone. I am considering rebarreling a Marlin 336 to 25-35 ackley improved 40 degree. Would the sharp 40 degree shoulder cause any feeding problems ? I see there is a 25-35 tomcat for example, which only has a 35 degree shoulder and a longer neck. Would this feed better ? I don't think I need the longer neck for any reason - I plan on only shooting jacketed bullets as fast as I can push them in this gun and don't have to worry about protecting the sides of a cast bullet. I think I can more easily find dies and a reamer for the ackley and it looks like it is maybe the highest capacity, so I would like to stick with it if I can but I see there are several other 30-30 based 25 caliber wildcats out there and would consider one if there is a problem with the ackley in a 336. Any thoughts?
Pure speculation, but the .348 Winchester Ackley Improved with the 40 degree shoulder, and several variations necked up and down, all feed through the Winchester M-71 without problems. May want to check with someone like Cosby Custom Guns that do a lot of lever rifle work. That action type feeds blunt cylindrical cartridges like the .45-70 without a hitch, so the sharp shoulder shouldn't be any problem.

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  #3  
Old 10-01-2004, 03:51 AM
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The .30-30AI feeds through my Marlin 336 with no modifications.
I like the Tomcat as the two Francis Sell articles I have seen on it indicate it is quite a killer.
Take a look at the .25 Bellm also. David White can fix you up with that.
I like the .25-35 but it just cannot be hotrodded without extraction problems. Ken Waters was correct in suggesting that what was really needed was a 100 grain flat point bullet. If you do this load the Sierra 75 grain hollow point for single shot shooting. It quite a bullet.
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Old 10-04-2004, 02:27 PM
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Hello... I am also interested in a similar project with a Marlin 1895. After reading William iorg's comments on the extraction problems encountered with the 25-35 Ackley imp. I wondered what caused the extraction problems with this cartridge? Is it the reduction in taper to the case side walls, the sharp shoulder angle, or the thickness of the brass used in the case itself, or something else? What is the most important feature in regards to avoiding hard extraction in a lever gun when considering a wildcat cartridge?
Also I am not familiar with the 25 Bellum what cartridge is this based on? And how does it compare with the 25-35 Ackley imp? Thanks, John H
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Old 10-04-2004, 02:48 PM
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Sorry, did not make myself clear. I was reffering to extraction problems with the standard .25-35 when it is hot roddd. You just cannot increase pressure very much at all without encountering extraction problems. This is Why Francis Sell (a big 25-35 fan) came up witht he Tomcat, alightly improved 25-35. The Bellm cartridge is also a lightly improved 25-35, more like the 7-30 waters. David White a contributor on this board is active with this cartidge and one of his own design.
The only problem with the Ackley Improved version is brass forming. Modern brass has been prown to split necks and shoulders. You could make your brass from .38-55 or .375 brass and eliminate the problem but add to the tooling cost.
Not thinking tonight. Here is a link to Bellm.

http://www.bellmtcs.com/forum/index.php?
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Last edited by William Iorg; 10-04-2004 at 02:52 PM.
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Old 10-05-2004, 04:42 AM
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Thanks William. So it looks like the Tomcat, ICL Coyote and Bellm type of wildcat can be fireformed using standard 25-35 brass, but the Ackley is too much. Can I anneal the neck and shoulder before fireforming to help the brass survive being blown out that much ? Will that make the brass too weak to use ?
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Old 10-05-2004, 10:53 AM
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If I remeber the ICL series they are even more radical than the Ackley line. The shoulder being moved further forward.
If you use new brass and I think you should, there is no need to anneal. You would want to neck the case up and then run it through the full length sizer to form a secondary shoulder. I do this for most of my .30-30AI case forming. I cannot prove that it extends case life but it appears to.
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Old 10-05-2004, 07:09 PM
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Marlin was originally chambered in 25-36 not 25-35, Winchester in a strategic move chambered their rifle in 25-35 it would chamber in a Marlin but Marlin's round would not chamber in the Winchester (slightly shorter case for the Winchester). So I think the ackley improved should work great in a Marlin, but might not in a Winnie.
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Old 10-06-2004, 03:53 AM
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The Winchester rifle controls (holds) the rim of the case. Thats why they will feed upsidedown and while lying on either side. One of my Dads favorite tricks is to take a handfull of .357 Magnum action dummies loaded with every bullet shape possible and load them in a Winchester M-94 in random order. The Winchester will feed them from any angle without a hitch. No Marlin 1894 has ever passed the test. We have both the Marlin and Wincherster rifles reamed for the .30-30AI and neither has had any action work done. Both brands of rifle feed the straight improved case reliably. I have reamed three Winchester M-94's to .30-30AI without trouble. MY Marlin and those of three other contributors I can think of on this board also feed the Improved cartridges with no modification.
Where the Marlin has the slight edge on the Winchester is in bullet meplat width. The Marlin will allow the wide meplats of the LBT type bullets to make the turn from the loading gate into the magazine with a longer COAL. This is especialy true of the .444 Winchester which requires a significantly shorter COAL than the Marlin.
I think if there is any drawback to the .25-35 Ackley it will be case forming. Not a significant problem but not as straight forward as the .30-30AI.
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Last edited by William Iorg; 10-06-2004 at 04:52 AM.
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  #10  
Old 10-06-2004, 02:12 PM
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25-35 Tomcat

A couple months ago I bought a nice 336 in 30-30, with the intent of profiling and fitting a .257 bore 1-10" barrel blank I'd purchased, and then chambering it in .25-35, and loading both jacketed and GC cast up to sticky extraction pressures.

I noticed this post and guess I'm now convinced that I should chamber it for Francis Sell's Tomcat version, as it appears I could nearly duplicate 250-3000 performance. From what I've read here, I could still fire factory 25-35 loads (assuming a slight loss in velocity due to the larger chamber) while retaining a fairly long neck and avoiding the sharper Ackley shoulder.

In doing a little preliminary research(www.reloadbench.com) I see a case length of 2.043" for 25-35 and a .018" shorter length of 2.025" for the Tomcat. That kind of negates fireforming (without a case trim first) or factory 25-35s - doesn't it? Anyone have other dimensions or a Tomcat reamer with enough neck length to accept factory ammo?

This isn't a rush project, but I'd like to make some sense out of this, Thanks, Joe
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  #11  
Old 10-06-2004, 04:41 PM
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here are some interesting articles on the .25's.

Handloader #142 11/12-1989, "The .25 Bullberry Contender" by Jay Turner. A good article.

Handloader #204 ".25-35 Winchster-Marlin" by Ken Waters. Another very good atricle.

American Rifleman June 1944 "Squirrel and Deer Rifle" by Fancis Sell.

American Rifleman March 1947 "Rifle For A Woods Loafer" by Francis Sell. My favorite article on the standard .25-35, no real load data.

The Gun Digest 1984 "Shoot Better With A Curved Buttplate by Francis Sell

The Gun Digest 1985 Middle Ground Deer Rifles by Francis Sell

American Rifleman, I'll have to hunt the date for you, A Custom Deer Rifle by Francis Sell. This may be the first .25-35 Tomcat article.

There is one more from Handloader and reprinted in the Wildcats book from Wolfe but I dont have it close by.
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