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  #1  
Old 11-22-2004, 02:44 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Posts: 106
.411 Hawk


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Howdy Guys n. Gals -

In my neverending search for another project I've been looking at the .411 Hawk - a .30-06 case opened up and almost "straight-walled" to .411 diameter.

I've seen loads showing 2500 FPS+ with a 300 grain bullet - that's impressive from the old 06 case.

I'm wondering if any of you have builot one of these big-boomers and your experience.

Although I already have a .416 Taylor that shoots like a house-a-fire it requires a necked down .458 Magnum case and 400 grain bullets to do iuts thing.

With gazilions of once fired 06 brass sitting in coffee cans in the garage, I think that I can save the cost of rebarreling/rechambering in the lower cost of brass - IF I live long enough!

Thanks in advance for any info and have happy Thanksgiving, we all have much to be thankful for, a safe deer season, and a blessed Christmas.

Bluesman
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  #2  
Old 11-22-2004, 03:43 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Alaska
Posts: 5,229
I've got one built on an 1895 Winchester. Fred Zeglin at Z-Hat Custom in Casper Wyoming built it. His website for the 411 is http://www.z-hat.com/411%20Hawk.htm

Do a search for "Hawk" here at Beartooth. I've posted several pictures of the rifle and cartridge in several places with performance metrics. I don't have the data in front of me right now. A search will turn up most of it.

It's not a straight walled case, the shoulder is at .454" which is a blown out case, but isn't parallel and does have a small shoulder. So far, I haven't had any headspace issues in the push feed, rear locking, lever action rifle.
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  #3  
Old 12-25-2004, 08:08 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Montana
Posts: 3
411 Hawk

Hello,

I also have a 411 Hawk and really enjoy this caliber. I'm using 300 Northforks at 2500fps as my load. Guns shoots very well to 300 and I'm going to shoot a pattern out to 400 to check the drop for Elk hunting. Drop at 300 yds is the same as a 30-06, but more enery and knock down. It is a very easy gun to shoot and fun to load as well.

Try it, you will enjoy it!
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  #4  
Old 12-26-2004, 11:24 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Posts: 106
Dear Alyeska338,

I have looked at the Z-Hat custrom web site and have also seen numerous articles on this company and cartridge. You have a lever action on the 1895 Winchester and I was considering a bolt action for conversion. If you don't mind I'd appreciate your thinking in choosing a lever action versus the bolt.

As I have been told by several folks who have lived and hunted in Alaska ( Lucky Folks like you, at that!) that long range use, 200 or more yards, of bigger bores is very unusual. I would be taking the rifle to Africa. In my experience in Africa there is not much reason for shots over 100 yards and they are rare if you can stalk, crawl, and keep the wind in your face.

There are great cartridges, the .375 H&H and .458 Winchester magnum, as well as a bunch of others, that are readily available in bolt guns but few cartridges capable of "serious use" on African brutes like buffalo if the doo-doo hits the rotary impeller. The .45-70 seems to have been used but I'm a tad concerned with stopping a wounded and angry buffalo FAST enough with even the 500 grain solid in a .45-70.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Bluesman
Quote:
Originally Posted by alyeska338
I've got one built on an 1895 Winchester. Fred Zeglin at Z-Hat Custom in Casper Wyoming built it. His website for the 411 is http://www.z-hat.com/411%20Hawk.htm

Do a search for "Hawk" here at Beartooth. I've posted several pictures of the rifle and cartridge in several places with performance metrics. I don't have the data in front of me right now. A search will turn up most of it.

It's not a straight walled case, the shoulder is at .454" which is a blown out case, but isn't parallel and does have a small shoulder. So far, I haven't had any headspace issues in the push feed, rear locking, lever action rifle.
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  #5  
Old 12-26-2004, 11:47 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Alaska
Posts: 5,229
Bluesman,
My rifle was designed for hunting deer or moose in the alder, devils club, and willow thickets along the coast or on the islands here in Alaska where the big Brown Bears live. I wanted a short, handy, fast handling and repeating rifle chambered for something in 40 cal or larger, would shoot premium constructed bullets with a sectional density of around .300 or better at velocities around 2100 fps or faster. I love bolt action rifles, but felt the lever action with good quality express type sights filled the requirements better in this instance. I also wanted the rifle to be able to handle spitzer shaped bullets. The intention was to have a rifle that would handle deer or moose on the far side of a muskeg meadow, say 200-250 yards or Brown Bear at shoestring distance. The 411 Hawk was one of a very few cartridges that would fulfill that requirement in a platform that I considered optimal. Even at that, it did take an extra folding leaf rear sight to accomplish it.

A bolt gun would have worked, I guess. Definitely would have provided more camming power and locked up tighter. The 1895 Winchester and 411 Hawk combo is what I felt would work for me the best though.

If you look at the pressures of the loads for the 411 Hawk that reach my self induced requirements, you will notice they are up there in pressure for the '06 cased cartridges. Around 55-58,000 psi to get this type of performance. While I don't think it is a huge deal with Alaska temps, at least if you don't feed the rifle a steady diet of them, I would be concerned about using these types of loads in this rifle in African temps. I believe those temps and the nature of the DG in Africa, really do call for a CRF bolt gun or double using a much lower pressure cartridge. That is just my opinion, I know others more experienced than I that have used something different with success. If I travel to Africa after Buff, Ele, Rhino, or Hippo, I will take my 500 Jeff or something with similar performance at similar pressures. That's one reason I would choose a 416 Rigby over a 416 Remington, or a 458 Lott over a 458 Winchester, etc...
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  #6  
Old 12-27-2004, 05:47 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Posts: 106
Very Good Advice!

Dear Alyeska338

Thanks again for well considered advice. Im have seen the user of a .460 Weatherby, who should NOT have been using a rifle which was too powerful and had WAY too much recoil for this particular chap, wound a buffalo in the gut and had the rifle lock up due to his poor selection of handloading materials. He would have been way ahead of the game with a rifle he could shoot, a load that was nowhere near maximum, and the ability to place every round inside a 4 inch circle offhand at fifty yards.

I understand the need for short, fast handling rifles when distances get measured in feet - not yards - and the beastie that is taking umbridge at your intrusion is capable of making you into a light snack.

My stopping rifles are all too light for more than 20 rounds of practice with good loads, but they carry easily and point almost on their own so I have learned to keep my loads within the reasonable zone and depend on my shooting, not of muzzle energy or bullet weight. My .375 H&H will shoot through anything on this planet with decent solids and good softs will give me over two feet of penetration after hitting bone. My 9.3x74 double rifle will do almost as well with Woodleigh solids and softs and offers the instant follow-up that can mean the difference between a running full tilt snap shot at the rear end of a wounded animal. The double also allows the shooter to stay on target with nothing but recoil to disturb the sight picture. And the double, even if hot-rodded loads are used, which I do not think is ever a good idea, has two rounds to the bolt guns one should the bolt get a bit sticky.

I have found that the older I get the more I appreciate iron sights for use at ranges under 80 yards. Past that range I don't have the eyes to place my shot accurately, fast enough. My scopes have been getting "shorter and shorter" every year. Now I still use the 8-32 Burris for sniping deer out past two hundred yards when the freezer is getting depleated of venison but wish that I my younger legs and wind so that I could stalk them closer.

I do envy your ability to use irons at long range, but those days are gone for me.

Bluesman
Quote:
Originally Posted by alyeska338
Bluesman,
My rifle was designed for hunting deer or moose in the alder, devils club, and willow thickets along the coast or on the islands here in Alaska where the big Brown Bears live. I wanted a short, handy, fast handling and repeating rifle chambered for something in 40 cal or larger, would shoot premium constructed bullets with a sectional density of around .300 or better at velocities around 2100 fps or faster. I love bolt action rifles, but felt the lever action with good quality express type sights filled the requirements better in this instance. I also wanted the rifle to be able to handle spitzer shaped bullets. The intention was to have a rifle that would handle deer or moose on the far side of a muskeg meadow, say 200-250 yards or Brown Bear at shoestring distance. The 411 Hawk was one of a very few cartridges that would fulfill that requirement in a platform that I considered optimal. Even at that, it did take an extra folding leaf rear sight to accomplish it.

A bolt gun would have worked, I guess. Definitely would have provided more camming power and locked up tighter. The 1895 Winchester and 411 Hawk combo is what I felt would work for me the best though.

If you look at the pressures of the loads for the 411 Hawk that reach my self induced requirements, you will notice they are up there in pressure for the '06 cased cartridges. Around 55-58,000 psi to get this type of performance. While I don't think it is a huge deal with Alaska temps, at least if you don't feed the rifle a steady diet of them, I would be concerned about using these types of loads in this rifle in African temps. I believe those temps and the nature of the DG in Africa, really do call for a CRF bolt gun or double using a much lower pressure cartridge. That is just my opinion, I know others more experienced than I that have used something different with success. If I travel to Africa after Buff, Ele, Rhino, or Hippo, I will take my 500 Jeff or something with similar performance at similar pressures. That's one reason I would choose a 416 Rigby over a 416 Remington, or a 458 Lott over a 458 Winchester, etc...
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