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  #1  
Old 04-06-2007, 04:37 PM
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.250 myra/.25 copperhead


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Hi guys, I have just finished doing a search for the .222 necked up to .25, however I have failed to come up with any loading data. Does anybody know how fast this round will shoot a 75 or 80 grain bullet from a 24 inch barrel? Any info you could share with me would be greatly appreciated,
Cheers
Steve
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  #2  
Old 04-07-2007, 12:23 PM
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Steve,

I too am a fan of the .250 Myra (.222 Remington necked up to .25 caliber)
Your Arthur Langsford is reasonably well known over here. His comments on the volume of rounds fired by kangaroo shooters amaze me.

The 24” barrel .250 Myra was supposed to push a 75 grain bullet to 2,768 fps using 22.5 grains of H4198. 23.5 grains of Hodgdon 322 was supposed to get the same result.

Of more interest to me was the 87 grain bullet which is supposed to get just under 2,650 fps with either 21.5 grains of H-4198 or 22.5 grains of H-322.

These results were reported fired from a Sako rifle made in Broken Hill NSW.

We have several options in this power range. The .25 Ugalde (.223 necked up to .25 cal.) giving similar performance to the .25 Myra.

John Wotters used a Sako L461 with 1 in 14” twist and 18 3/8” long. The slow twist in Wooters barrel left him with an 87 grain and lighter bullet selection.
Wotters reported velocities of 2,600 fps with 75-grain bullets and 2,500 fps with 87-grain bullets for his accurate loads. Wotters primary use for his .25 Copperhead was as a coyote gun and I can relate that a short barrel is handy in the cedar for coyotes called in close.

Wayne Blackwell reported his 25 X 47 (.25 - .222 Remington Magnum) Remington 700 gave excellent accuracy with 75-grain bullets getting 2,800 fps and 87-grain bullets getting 2,700 fps from his 22” barrel. Blackwell’s article on his cartridge and rifle has kept my attention over the years but the availability of .222 Rem Mag brass has been a roadblock to any thing more than day dreams.

Harley Shaw has a .25-.225 and his results are impressive with 87-grain bullets topping the 3,000 fps barrier in his Remington 788.

For my use the small .25’s are ideal for our small deer and modest ranges. The .25-.222 Rem is pretty well ideal for our use. There a few of these rifles in my local area. I have limited my rifles to the .25-20, .256 Winchester and .25-35 Winchester. The .25 Remington is in limited use and does well on our deer and pigs.

What rifle will you use? What barrel length and twist? Are you hunting kangaroo’s or target shooting? Good to meet another light rifle fan who is not starry eyed over the 6mm’s!
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  #3  
Old 04-07-2007, 01:26 PM
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Gents
I've been pondering making a 25 based on the 5.56 case, simply because the cases are so plentiful.
I want to use a mini Mauser action with Douglas barrel and some plastic stock.
My plan is to make it a cast bullet only gun, like my 375 Whelen.
Thanks for the info.
Jim
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  #4  
Old 04-07-2007, 02:06 PM
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I think I would cut the .223’s down to 1.695” to keep the case capacity at a more useful level. The .222 Rem has a bout 25% more case capacity than the .256 WM. With a cast only rifle Wootters slow twist should prove ideal.

Wootters used the Lyman 257463 72grain bullet, I believe NEI has a similar bullet available.
Wayne Blackwell used the Lyman 257312 87-grain bullet in his .25 X 47 cartridge.
I prefer the heavier bullets in the .25-35 as my fast twist barrels require a lower velocity for accuracy. Greg Mushial had a slow twist .25-35 barrel and received excellent accuracy at all reasonable velocities with the lighter bullets. Greg was following the reports of Paul Estey and Townsend Whelen. Whelen used a slow twist .25-35 barrel on a Winchester Hi-Wall as a chuck rifle with good results.

My brother had a 14”.25 Ugalde barrel for his Contender several years ago and enjoyed it very much. Sadly I never got the chance to work with this barrel. The dies and reamer for the Ugalde cartridge may be more readily available than some of the others if cost is a factor.

I have paper patched some .25 caliber bullets with good results. The bullets are large enough to not be difficult to work with. The patched bullets shot well in my .25-35 fast twist TC barrel. Best results were obtained with a folded patch tail – acting as a paper gas check.
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  #5  
Old 04-07-2007, 05:29 PM
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Hi William. Firstly thanks for the info. The reason behind this rifle was I am a small calliber fan and was looking at making a .14/.221 walker, however it seems as if bullets might be hard to post out to Oz as well as cleaning gear and custom dies. The rifle I have is an old Sako L461 that I got for $750 AU with a harris bipod as well as being bedded, floated and with a worked on trigger, but its too good to sell now the .14 wont go ahead.
I already own 3 rem 700 BDL's in 17 rem, 204 and .222 so with this little rifle I was hoping to make a rifle that has enough punch out to 200 yards or so for goats, roo's and small pigs, that also used the same case as the .222 but was much more handy to carry. I also wanted to use a heavier bullet of about 70-75 grains but without the muzzle blast, noise, and recoil of the bigger .6mm's and .25's.
This rifle wont be used for professional 'roo shooting, but its somthing that I would like to have a shot at. Have you heard about our pro rabbit shooters? My dad spent a couple of mounths in a camp and each night 4 blokes shot over 400 rabbits each, often closer to 500 6-7 days a week. Funny thing is even after all the rabbits that were being shot, there were rabbit burrows under the caravan in which the shooters were staying! I have a brno model 2 made in 1957 that spent 15 years or so as a pro shooters rifle, and believe me it has fired alot of rounds.
So I am now tied between the .250 myra the 25 TCU, .25X47 or the .243 myra, .6mm TCU or the .6X47. Which cartridge would you recomend for the little sako, as I dont want to use bullets heavier than 80 or so grains, and would like the trajectory to be reasonably flat to 200 yards. For the barrel I was thinking a 24 inch fast twist match grade Stainless with a contour as close to the factory original as I could, once again to preserve the light weight and responsivness of the original.
many thanks for your help
Steve
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  #6  
Old 04-08-2007, 10:06 AM
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If I remember correctly, Wooters called his 25/222 the 25 Copperhead. Maybe there is some data listed under that name somewhere.
The 222 Magnum case is the longest case the L461 was ever chambered for, to my knowledge (I have an L461 in 222 magnum). If you choose a 222 magnum based wildcat, check the length of the load you are thinking of using to make sure it will fit in the magazine and feed.
In my L461, some 222 magnum handloads can be too long to fit the magazine. I would think the larger diameter, heavier bullets (which may be longer) in a .24 or .25 caliber wildcat might exacerbate that problem

Last edited by Jack; 04-08-2007 at 10:23 AM.
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  #7  
Old 04-08-2007, 12:46 PM
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John Wootters two articles on the .25 Copperhead were in Handloader No. 18, February 1969 and Rifle No. 22, October 1972. Wayne Blackwell’s article on the .25 X 47 was in Rifle No. 37, January 1975. These were quite awhile back.

“The rifle I have is an old Sako L461 that I got for $750 AU with a harris bipod as well as being bedded, floated and with a worked on trigger, but its too good to sell now the .14 wont go ahead.”

The Sako sure is popular. I don’t see many of them in use but I read quite a bit about them.


“This rifle wont be used for professional 'roo shooting, but its somthing that I would like to have a shot at. Have you heard about our pro rabbit shooters?”

Yes, I have a friend who was raised by his Grandparents who were kangaroo hunters right after WWII. His stories of their daily life are interesting – life was hard.
The amount of ammunition they fired was amazing. My friend is quick with a knife and will not use the new high tech blades. Carbon steel for him, with a stone in his pocket too keep the edge.

“I have a brno model 2 made in 1957 that spent 15 years or so as a pro shooters rifle, and believe me it has fired alot of rounds.”

Just like a high mileage truck and the cost of fuel, the cost of the ammunition fired through that rifle would far exceed its new value. My friend says the scopes they used when he was a kid were small and dark compared to today’s large objective scopes. Irons sights were in wide spread uses and large night beads were common.

“So I am now tied between the .250 myra the 25 TCU, .25X47 or the .243 myra, .6mm TCU or the .6X47.”

For me it would be a choice between the .250 myra (or .25 Copperhead) and the .25 TCU. For you bullet selection has to be a secondary factor. According to Snow it seems just about everything is available to you, if not in your home community, then a phone call away. The important thing is you are not trying to make a living at this. If you were it would change everything.

“Which cartridge would you recomend for the little sako, as I dont want to use bullets heavier than 80 or so grains, and would like the trajectory to be reasonably flat to 200 yards.”

Jack makes a very good point about COAL in the small action. With today’s long plastic tip bullets it is something to consider. My selection of bullets for the small .25 caliber cartridges hinges around the Sierra flat base 75-grain hollow point. I like the way this bullet acts on small critters and the accuracy in several of my rifles is excellent. For slightly larger critters – small deer size – I like the 100-grain Speer JHP, also a flat base bullet. The 87-grain Sierra Varminter is another good bullet but I tend to look lighter for higher velocity or heavier for more punch.
The 85-grain Nosler ballistic tip and the 75-grain Hornady A-Max give superb accuracy in every rifle I have tried them in but they cost .23¢ each for the Nosler and .18¢ each for the Hornady, plus shipping. I buy the Sierra 75-grain JHP’s for .14¢ each.
You have your version of Hodgdon’s 419 and 322 so powder selection will be a simple matter of what your rifle prefers. For several reason I would choose the 24” barrel too.
Keep in mind I am no expert on these cartridges. My limited experience lies with the .25-20 WCF, .256 Win. Mag, .25-35 WCF, .25-35AI and the .250 Savage. The one man in my local area who was a genuine expert with these small capacity cartridges, Professor G. O. Ashley, is dead and gone. There does not seem to be a great number of “seat of the pants” wildcatters around anymore. If they are around they write for magazines I have not discovered yet.
Do you know of a fellow Australian named Greg Matthews?
Keep us posted on your thoughts
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  #8  
Old 04-08-2007, 12:54 PM
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Handloader issue #18 has good loading data for the 25/222 Copperhead. You will have to subscribe to Load Data to get the charge weight or find a back issue but they list 28 different loadings. They list loads from 60 grain to 100 grain weight bullet in the article. Here is the link to Load Data if you are intrested.

lhttp://www.loaddata.com/members/search_detail.cfm?MetallicID=2710








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  #9  
Old 04-08-2007, 06:02 PM
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Hi guys thanks heaps for all the info. I still have yet to decide on a round, but I am thinking either the .6 TCU or the .25 TCU, as these are more likly to function in the short Sako action. Yes William I do know of Greg Mathews, I think he has writen about as much stuff on guns here in Oz as anybody, possibly even Nick Harvey, he did an article on the .243 myra which got me thinking of this project. Why is it that you ask?
Does anybody know where I can get .25 TCU dies from? Pac-nor chambers for it, just need dies. Many people chamber for the .6 TCU or the .6/.223 and hornady has off the shelf dies for both the .6mm's. Anyone know about the quality of Pac-nors work, both barrels and gunsmithing?lots to think about.
Please keep the up with info, I will be going away on the 10th for several weeks to work on a natural gas pipline, so therefore I wont be able to reply much-If at all depending on where and when I can get access to a computer.
Thanks again
Steve
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  #10  
Old 04-11-2007, 03:15 PM
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Although I don't believe its a viable option, just to complete the list we need to mention the existence of the .257 Kimber that was to be delivered in factory rifles with dies. I never heard how many were actually produced. This case was the .222 mag opened to .25 with an improved body and the shoulder blown forward. According the Layne Simpson's article in Handloader, it produced near .250 Savage results.
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  #11  
Old 04-11-2007, 04:45 PM
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I forgot about it. If it will fit in the magazine and he can buy brass it is a good option.
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  #12  
Old 04-12-2007, 06:36 AM
Con Con is offline
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Steve,
I think you also posted at AusVarmint?? When you get back drop me a PM at that forum as I visit it more often. I can email you load data for the 250Myra as it was covered by Greg Matthews in the old ASJ (Oct '93) magazine. He also used a Sako L461. Another option that Matthews explored was a fast-twisted 222Rem with heavy projectiles which gave very similar velocities.
Cheers...
Con
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  #13  
Old 04-14-2007, 04:40 AM
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Hi guy's still sweating it out, in Western Australia but thankyou for all of your input. Hi Con yes this was posted on Ausvarmint, if you could please send me the data it would be much appreciated.
Cheers
Steve
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  #14  
Old 04-17-2007, 05:11 AM
Con Con is offline
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Steve,
Sorry just saw your response. PM sent with Myra data.
Cheers...
Con
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  #15  
Old 04-19-2007, 12:30 PM
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AUSSIE STEVE,

FIRST, you don't want a .6mm gun as .6mm equals .0024 inches.

1. Decide what is maximum cartridge length your gun will feed.

2. Decide what is the longest bullet, regardless of weight, you will be loading.

3. Choose parent case long enough to get good neck contact with the shortest bullets to be used while not so long as to intrude on the ogive of the longest bullets.

Life would be so much simpler if shooters would stick with one bullet as the military figured out a century ago.

It helps if it is a readily available case.

Longer cases are not necessarily better. They can just result in the bullet being seated deeper with little significant difference in usable case capacity. A case can be so long that it prevents use of many of the longer more ballistically efficient bullets.

When loaded to the same pressure levels there is very little difference between a .25/.222 and a .25/223. .223 brass will always be VERY easy to find and cheap, probably not so for the .222. I own both .222 and .223 but starting out today I would choose the .223 case.
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Old 04-19-2007, 02:34 PM
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I can't help but agree with Bagtic. Assuming the rifle and magazine will accept it (and I'm nearly positive they will) I'd go with the .25/223 (or 25 TCU or 25 Ugalde all of which are identical, I believe) and center things around the 75HP or 75 VMax.

I doubt there's a more balanced combo out there in the light quarter bore. Why, it should even shoot cast bullets well!
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  #17  
Old 04-20-2007, 05:38 AM
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Hi guys thanks for the info, still trying to save up for the work
Steve
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  #18  
Old 04-20-2007, 05:53 AM
Con Con is offline
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Steve,
The 223Rem case is pretty handy ... but buying a bulk lot of 500 cases in 222Rem will also probably see out your 25Myra barrel!! Who are you considering for the work?
Cheers...
Con
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  #19  
Old 04-25-2007, 10:12 PM
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Hi Con sorry about the late reply, I am still not sure who to go with on the rebarreling yet, have spoken to a few gunsmiths and none have the reamer, so I will have to keep looking
Cheers
Steve
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  #20  
Old 04-25-2007, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie steve
Hi Con sorry about the late reply, I am still not sure who to go with on the rebarreling yet, have spoken to a few gunsmiths and none have the reamer, so I will have to keep looking
Cheers
Steve
Have you contacted Sprinter Arms in Hahndorf, SA? They were involved in a lot of this stuff when it was popular.

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