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  #1  
Old 04-22-2009, 10:16 AM
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.50 cal wildcat...not BMG


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Hey guys, long time lurker, first time poster here.

A little background...

I am active duty military, and a full time hunter. Nowhere in there did you read gunsmith...haha... I live and breath hunting actually. I also got bitten by the big-bore bug a few years back when I bought a mint condition .444 marlin from one of the pawn shops outside of our gate for 250.00.

Now I am not sure if the cartridge and gun combination exists that can do everything I'm looking for, but if not, thats ok, I'll just have to buy more guns!

My new idea is to have a .50 round, similar in ballistics to the .50 alaskan, BUT and this is a big but...I would also like to load down these rounds and be able to use them like a .510 whisper....I'd also like this gun to be a repeater...there in lies the problem...

So, the best idea I have come up with so far is to get a .50 alaskan, and cut/trim the brass down to an acceptable length so I have my overall length including a BMG bullet, but then I start wondering about headspace and the like...not sure if that round headspaces off the case or the rim...doesn't have a shoulder...also, in a lever gun, I'd be limited to two shots because of the pointed tip bullets with one in the tube and one in the chamber, but that'd be ok...a quick follow up would be nice....

I suppose all this would be a moot point if I just got this round in Ruger No. 1, but again, two shots is twice as many and when I was just out hunting I could still have 4 in the tube.

I thought about using the .500 S&W for a parent case, but a bmg is .510...

So, I am certainly open to ideas, dont be too harsh on me now, i'm just brainstorming here.

If none of this sounds good or feasible, I could always go the ar-15/ar-10 route, but I dont much like military rifles for hunting...but the .458 socom, .450 Bush, and .50 beo look like handy rounds. I understand the .500 phantom is out in the ar-10 platform as well as the .450 marlin!

Bottom line: I want something that can be loaded up to .50 alaskan and down to .510 whisper and is a repeater of some type. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
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  #2  
Old 04-22-2009, 10:35 AM
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Do you not consider a bolt-action rifle (with a magazine) to be a repeater?

The 500 Linebaugh is the same case as the 50 Alaskan trimmed to 1.4 inches, and the 500 Linebaugh Long is 1.6 inches. Both can be fired in a 50 Alaskan rifle, and they all use .510" diameter bullets. You might consider using a shorter case in a 50 Alaskan with the longer bullet, thereby getting your subsonic velocity and possibly feeding well in the lever-action.
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  #3  
Old 04-22-2009, 10:44 AM
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I'll check into that for sure, thank you for the reply.

Yes, of course I think a bolt gun is a repeater, just hadn't seen anything remotely close to what I was looking for caliber wise in a bolt gun. Not that they aren't out there of course, the .50 alaskan mods just seem centered on levers...

Besides, when's the last time you saw a lever gun with a can?
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  #4  
Old 04-24-2009, 05:04 PM
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http://townermfg.com/


500 S&W pump gun. Fairly good quality also.
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  #5  
Old 04-24-2009, 05:59 PM
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I have just the round you want. The .500 Phantom that you mentioned. It works in either the AR-15 or LR-308 platform but with the LR-308 you can use the BMG bullets. You cannot use them in the AR platform because they are too long for the magazine. That is the good news. It is out there, but the bad news is the brass is impossible to find now. Marty of Teppo Jutsu is the developer of the round and the last order of brass took almost two years to get so he had dropped the round. It cannot be easily formed from another case. His new line of rounds, the Rhino series, would serve as a parent case to the .500 Phantom but he cannot get the Rhino brass either. The parent case of both is the .500 Jeffrey and it uses a rebated rim so you cannot just cut to length, ream, and size and trim. Contact Marty (google Teppo Jutsu) and maybe he can give you an idea on when the Rhino brass might come on line. I have been waiting over two years for Rhino brass for my .470 Rhino but none yet and I only have 20 cases of it and 300 cases of .500 Phantom. I know this is pretty much a dead end but the round you want is out there, IF Marty can ever get the Rhino brass made. Then all you do is size and trim and you'll have a source of .500 Phantom brass.

.500 Phantom rifle above on LR-308 platform, Ammo below. Only the long A-Max bullet will not feed through the magazine.



Now, in regards to cutting down the .50 AK case, why not leave it full length? I formed my .50 AK brass from the .348 Win (before Starline started making it) by shooting reduced loads under corn meal with a .50 cal ML bullet in the case. Very mild as in almost no recoil, so as long as you use a filler and BE CAREFUL you should be able to develop sub-sonic loads. Out of my .50 AK with a 750 gr. A-Max i am getting around 1300 FPS at maximum recoil load (recoil max, not pressure) out of my 12 inch Encore. At start load it is well below the speed of sound so if you can run a heavy lead bullet or a BMG bullet you won't have any trouble keeping it sub-sonic but with lighter more normal bullets it will scream with 475 gr. LBTLFNGC bullets at around 1800 fps, probably more out of a longer barrel.

There is no way you can shoot the BMG bullet out of a lever action unless you did cut the case way back but then you won't be able to run full throttle with lighter hunting bullets and equal the .50 AK. And a rimmed case like the .50 AK may give you trouble in a bolt gun if the rims get shuffled. In a No. 1, no worries. But in a repeater you best bet might be to use a Winchester LA rifle like the 1885 or the 1886 which they make in .45-70 and .45-90, but in the Marlin you are really confined on max cartridge length.
Good luck on your project. Sounds like fun.
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Last edited by Big Bore; 04-24-2009 at 06:14 PM.
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  #6  
Old 04-25-2009, 03:01 AM
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.50

Here's an idea. Food for thought, though perhaps not exactly what you are looking for. And not a true wildcat. A .50 BMG bullet loaded into a 50-70 case. SSK calls it the 50-70-750. Shot from a 1-8" twist barrel at 800-900 fps, it is quite accurate. Maybe it will give you some ideas. (the other cartridge is the smallest Whisper the 7.62 Micro.)

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  #7  
Old 04-25-2009, 08:59 AM
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In An AR Platform.......

.......seems to me that the .450 Marlin would be a real thumper. Also the 458X2". That is, unless there is something of a problem with a autoloader and a weapon that headspaces on the belt.

And.....if the Marlin and the 458 could be loaded to there full SAAMI max......yeeeeowza. What a mag full o' power that would be. -----pruhdlr
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  #8  
Old 04-25-2009, 05:44 PM
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That is the problem with the .458 on the AR-15 platform. Pressures. To get the same amount of bolt back thrust as the 5.56, when you go to the larger head diameter of the .458 (.308 size) you must limit maximum pressure to 35,000 psi to keep back thrust the same. That is why you cannot just jack up the .458 SOCOM to 55K and have it equal the .45-70 in a Ruger No. 1 or the .458 x 2" American (or .450 Marlin) in a bolt gun. It would exceed the design limits of the AR-15 bolt lugs. This is the same reason the T.C. Contender can shoot .223 but cannot shoot the .308, even though both run at about the same pressures. The larger head size of the .308 gives much higher back thrust than does the .223.
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  #9  
Old 06-03-2009, 04:06 AM
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I am finding this post late but I thought you would be interested to know my good friend Mike Cyrus has spent years developing exactly what you are looking for. He actually has two rounds. The first is called the 500 Cyrus. It has had the most development work. Check out Hodgen's web site for load data. He is also working on a round called the .50 TAC. It is setup to shoot the BMG bullets. Check out his website, www crossoutdoors com, and contact Mike for more info. He loves to talk big bores. I can personally attest that these cartridges hit like nothing else I have ever seen.
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  #10  
Old 06-03-2009, 02:37 PM
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Going along with Evan on the 500 Cyrus, Dave Fricke at Lehigh bullets has the 500 Cyrus in a center grip XP 100 handgun! He loves it compared to the 510 Wells that came off the same action.

I would highly recommend the Cyrus round.

Neal
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  #11  
Old 06-04-2009, 05:56 AM
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I have hunted with Dave and I have shot that XP 100. It's a handful for sure but it is a blast to shoot.
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  #12  
Old 06-06-2009, 11:11 AM
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Couple points

#1). the .50 Alaskan was the .348 necked up and the .348 was made on the old .50/70 -- .50/90 --.50/140 black powder rim which is bigger than the .45/70 rim.. With Browning making the 71 and 1886, ammo available.. but I would keep a supply in reserve...
#2). the Siam 98 Mauser copy out of Siam by way of Japan will handle the .348 case (have one, .35/.348 Ackley Improved by Mr. A himself. Rivals light loads in .358 Norma.) handily. Older Mauser action should stand up to anything reasonable. You are on your own with the long boat tail bullet. Fast twist and deep seated... ???? Leave you the possible of using the Alaskan should you decide to do something tiny like brown bears...
#3). Met a man briefly who was babbling on about taking two p14/M17 Enfield actions and cutting them to weld together to handle the .50 Browning... My shoulder got sore listening to him and I wandered off. Luck.
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  #13  
Old 06-17-2009, 03:26 PM
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Just shorten a .460 Weatherby and neck it up, find a Siamese Mauser.
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  #14  
Old 07-09-2009, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swany View Post
Just shorten a .460 Weatherby and neck it up, find a Siamese Mauser.
You beat me to it ! I was about to say, just use a .378 Roy case.


A .460 case can push a 535gr .510" Woodleigh to about 2500 out of a 24" barrel.
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Last edited by Tang; 07-09-2009 at 10:30 AM.
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  #15  
Old 07-09-2009, 06:24 PM
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I'd go with the .500 A-Square, which is based on the .378 WBY case blown out a tad, it will push a 600 grain bullet at 2600 fps, and you can easily have a CZ 550 converted to it.

In fact, I am in the process of having one built for myself!
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  #16  
Old 07-11-2009, 03:25 PM
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There are a bunch of .500 and .510 offerings out there for those that are interested in doing some research. I would guess any number of them would fit into just about any milieu you want...from the "whispers" to the "almost 50 BMG" to the full BMG.

Checkout Accurate Reloading - Big Bore forum - RobGunBuilder or Hubel458(a ton of information) or subscribe to Ammo Guide or just search under the caliber size you are interested in. Several of the BIg Bore forums have good information available.

Any kind of wildcatting requires a steep learning curve and lots of searching and design work so if you are interested...get busy...

Anyone intersted can do a little gunsmithing to a Savage LA, including making a new magazine and mag feed 4" long cartridges. Savage has the 210 available that will handle the 50 BMG round single shot or a slightly shorter one mag fed. Or you can single feed a full length 50 BMG by removing the bolt, inserting the round, then reinserting the bolt. Do a little more 'smithing on the Savage LA and you might just be able to drop-in a 50 BMG.

How do I know...I'm going throught all the steps right now...using a full lenght 50 BMG dummy and Saav LA. Don't know if I will ever complete this project, but a 510 Gibbs is a relatively simple Savage LA do...and there are also larger calibers such as .585 and .620 that are available for those that REALLY want something BIG.

As always there are many ways to get to certain points...you just have to do some cogitating, think outside the envelope, fully understand all the physics involved and the pressures relationships, ask a lot of questions of the RIGHT PEOPLE...those who have "donit"...and just "DOIT".

Luck on your projects.
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