If anyone out there would like to exchange data/loads or just "chew the fat" etc on the Lovell 2R post a responce. For those not familiar with it, it is a wildcat developed in the 1930's based on necking down a "25-20 Single shot" to .22 caliber. I've posted elsewhere in the past with very limited responce as I suspect many rifles have been rechambered long ago to factory sizes. Have a great fall.

Jaguar, I know nothing about loading the 2R lovell, but my dad had one back in the early 50's. It was built on a Win. High wall. A really nice rifle. He sold it and bought a Marlin lever gun in .219 Zipper.
Not to cool.....

Hi Bodog
Thanks for the responce.
Hi-wall and Lovell were a nice combination, esp. with a fecker scope or similar. If California was it's origin then it was possibly the work of "Hackett & Humphrey" who were strong supporters of this cartridge. Hope the Zipper is still at hand as it also is a neat piece.
All the best.

I have a Savage 44 1/2 action with a 1 " bull barrel put together by CC johnson in Thackery Ohio pre- 1935 that is chambered for the 2R Lovell . It has a 10 X Malcolm tube scope with a 1/4 minute dot purchased and installed during WW 2. The best load we ever developed for this cartridge was to seat a new small rifle primer, resize the neck just far enough to hold a .224 Sisk Lovell bullet and then fill the cartridge with IMR 4198 to overflowing. Then scrape off the excess powder on the top of the case and seat the bullet. I really don't know what the weight of the 4198 was but altogether it made a great 150- 200 yard east coast woodchuck gun.

Cartridges were available in the old days from Grffin and Howe (Acbercrombie and Fitch) headstamped as .22/3000. There are a couple of outfits in Colorado that will make you unprimed cases at about $22/per box of 20 as well as Full length dies although the original .25 single shot cases are long gone. When you order, be sure that you can specify whether the neck is the thin or thick version of this wildcat.

You may also want to consult the BIBLE of reloading, i.e, Jack O"Connor's Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders. He covers the 2R Lovell with a variety of loads. By the way, 2R stands for "2 reamers" necessary to cut the chamber. I didn't think that there were any of these great little varmint guns left around. Glad I'm not the only one who has one (and 50 G&H .22/3000 Cases to boot!)

Steve,

Have to disagree with you on the meaning of 2-R. It is also found as R-2 and the R is for Risley. This is from C.S. Landis book on .22 Varmint Rifles written when this was a very popular cartridge.

Don't have a 2-R, but do have a #6 or Maximum Lovell that was supposed to be a 2-R. While I was in my last year at Trinidad State JC in 1964 I wanted to build one, it was thoroughly obsolete already. I ordered a reamer set from Mayer in Raton, NM, but he came up with about 120 G&H cases, some loaded and some un-fired, as well as a size and finish reamer set, a hand neck sizer and a straight line seater, all for about $15 as I recall. The sizer is marked H. Lovell! Still have the rifle etc. Had to re-chamber the sizer and seater as they were for the 2-R. Havn't shot it for several years since brass is, as noted, quite expensive. Still have 80+ of the G&H cases augmented by severalpicked up at gun shows over the years. Can't helpwith data as this has a somewhat larger capacity the the 2-R.

I know an older gentleman (about 80 ) who's calibers of choice are the Hornet and the R2 Lovell . He has about ten rifles chambered for the 22-3000 or the R2 . He has one that really turns me on , it's a 03 Springfield that was rebarreled by Sedgley in R2 . He has 3 or 4 1878 Sharps in R2 as well . He also has a Sharps in the 22 Bluestreak.
Last time I visited him he had brand new sealed boxes of G&H 22-3000 cases 50 in a box . He also had sealed boxes of Sisk bullets.
I keep trying to get that Sedgley but so far he hasn't budged.

Hi Jaguar, My father befriended R.B. Sisk, the bullet maker during the second war and ended up running his small business when Mr. Sisk was away. Mr. Sisk gave him a lovell and the two shot frequently together. It's a Stevens High wall. My dad passed about 20 years ago and I have since had the rifle reconditioned, and I bought a new Unertl scope from old Mr. Unertl over in Pittsburgs some time ago and mounted it on the rifle. I have all of my dad's and Mr. Sisks hand written info. on the best loads and have since found some new brass. I'm just getting started with the reloading and will keep you posted as to what I discover about the best and worst loads. I'd appreciate any information that you may have.
I also have a couple boxes of Sisk Super Lovell bullets and and would love to have more if you run across any.

Also the R2 was a forerunner (no way connected) to the 222 Rem. The R2 was the early BR cartridge and was boringly accurate. The down fall was the 25-20 case or lack there of. Once the .375" case head came round' the little 25-20 went the way of the Dodo. Nice nastaligic round. Adam

Greetings from the uninformed. My father had a Winchester model 54 Hornet that was "sporterized by mr. J B Gebby into a 22-3000. My father refered to it as a "Lovell" and I would like to know the history behind that name. I see reference to Lovell in his Ideal Hand book. The gun was my father's varmit gun. I am getting a bit long in the tooth and would like more info on this gun, cartridges, etc. to pass on to my son along with the gun. My father passed back in '88. He and I reloaded cartridges for it but I never paid enough attention, I guess. I have found notes in the above mentioned book refering to the reloading but do not know enough about it to do anything. I would appreciate any help that you may be able to pass on. Thank You, Glenn Tussing

Welcome to the forum. Rules are to join in, have fun, and play nicely with the rest of us kids.

You won't get many answers trying to revive a thread from 2003. Many of the participants from nearly a decade ago will have moved on or, sadly, passed on. I see another first time poster tried to do the same thing a year ago (two posts before yours) and has never posted since, probably thinking Jaguar, whose personal profile (click on a user name to see that) shows he hasn't logged on the board since 2007, was ignoring him. You really want to start your own new thread asking about the Lovell cartridges. You're much more likely to get a response that way.

When you're in the wildcat cartridge forum (or any other) looking at the list of threads, look in the upper left corner for the button that says "New Thread". Click on that and give it a title and away you go.

__________________
Nick

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Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
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"First contemplation of the problems of Interior Ballistics gives the impression that they should yield rather easily to relatively simple methods of analysis. Further study shows the subject to be of almost unbelievable complexity." Homer Powley

Hi all.
Still around and such. Just tardy as usual.
Anyhow, regarding the Lovell cartridges, I've compiled a CD with all the period magazine articles, load data, etc etc. If interested in a copy please pm me.
By the way, below is a pic of my small frame Martini in Lovell 2R.



Cheers
Jaguar/TheCounty

(ps definitely not ignoring anyone for sure, just thought the thread had worn out)

I'd say not. Stuff like this fascinates me. I'm as nuts for guns as squirrels are for acorns. Looking up an ancient thread is like firearms archeology: You never know what you'll learn...

For those looking in, I've copied over a briefing on the Lovell that I have posted on other sites.



The "22-3000" (or 22 Lovell) was a wildcat round developed by an American named Hervey (not Harvey) Lovell, about 1934. He accomplished this by taking the "25-20 Single Shot" case which is a bit longer than the regular 25-20 Win case and necked it down with a fairly smooth shoulder to .22 caliber. A bit quicker than the "Hornet", and inherently accurate; it became a common wildcat caliber in the USA and Canada.
In 1937, Harvey (yes Harvey) Donaldson with the help of M. Risley doing the reamer work, created the first improved form of the 22-3000 which became known as the "2R Lovell". The "2R" designation was due to the fact that it was the "2nd reamer" made by Risley that was utilized. Some references to this cartridge call it the 2R Donaldson furthur confusing the topic. The 2R Lovell has been described as the most popular .22 wildcat ever designed. J. B. Smith and Griffin & Howe of the USA both had factory runs of this ammunition made. (If memory serves me right, contracted to Winchester) . The original cases made from 25-20 SS (up to about 1935 then discontinued) are thin and "incipent head separation" is common and not necessarily signs of excessive high pressure. Later cases from Smith or G&H are much stronger.
The Lovell story does not end there, as various gunsmiths pushed the case development furthur by moving the shoulder forward & steepening it's angle to gain case capacity. This was known as the "Maximum Lovell"
Many campained Winchester and Remington for the 2R Lovell to be domesticated as a factory cartridge, WW2 came along and such interests obviously hit the backburner. Then in 1950 Remington brought out the 222 which was similar to the Lovell cartridges, only slightly larger and rimless. It is my understanding that the 222 was drawn on its own unique and new brass coin. This pretty much spelled a quick death to the Lovell series and Remington had no royalties or buy-outs to worry about. (Imagine the royalties on the 222/222Mag/and 223 line !!)
Disclaimers on any information following, as it is up to you to verify.
About 14.0 -14.5 grains of 4198 is the maximum you will be able to fit in a case without compression. Do NOT compress load !!! .
Also 4227 was a popular choise but as I got over 13.5 grains and more than 2600fps with 45 grain bullets the heads separated from my old 25-20SS cases nearly every round. These cases are not cheap either.
A fine modern choise that works well in my 2R Lovell is 12.5 to 13.0 grains of Hodgdon's Lil Gun. Again with 45 grain bullets.
As for cases, if you cannot sourse 25-20SS to convert, then try Rocky Mountain Cartridges. Great people who will turn you nicely boxed batches of 20. Although not drawn brass, I've had great success with their products including 2R Lovell.
Custom dies and reloading are of course a must and I went as far as to order a neck collet die from Lee's to minimize working of the brass.
I've gathered quite a bit of data from period publications such as American Rifleman, etc and even have a reproduction of a booklet produced in 1938 by B.L. Smith. Most of this I have compiled onto CD and offer it to those interested for the price of postage and blank CD (totally non-profit for sure).
My personal rifle in 2R Lovell is a Custom Model 8 BSA Martini which I thoroughly enjoy.
Cheers
Jaguar/TheCounty

Jaguar, that Martini is the nuts!

Ken Waters has an article on the 2R, Maximum Lovell, and 22-3000 in his "Pet Loads," which was originally published in "Handloader" Magazine. I don't have the magazine but do have the collected articles as published by Wolf Publications in one (BIG) volume.

I'm OLD enough to have shot a 2R and I'm a single shot nut, but for some reason I've never shot one. The only one I've handled was on a Ballard action (and I have been told that was a very bad idea!). I have seen, but not handled, a Krag converted to a single shot 2R. It was done by a New York City gunmaker, Griffin and Howe, and was a truly beautiful sporter. A Hiwall 2R or 44 1/2 is the gold standard, but a small Martini is also about perfect (I remember when those were $9.95 plus postage). The only Martini I still have is a .25-35 WCF, but I've had them in a number of wildcats and small varmint cartridges. Slick.

About the nearest "modern" round is the .222 Rimmed, once popular in Australia. Frank de Haas had one, made on an American falling block whose name I've forgotten. Very close to the 2R ballistically.

Hi Mike
The Ken Water's article is in my CD compilation. Nicely done, & always enjoy his work. The Griffin & Howe would be a nice piece for sure, as well as the Ballard. Not certain as I'm no Ballard sage, but if no cracks were evident on the reciever I believe it could handle the Lovell Ok, and itself would be a lovely piece. Wish I could pick up a bundle of Martinis for that price again. They used to be "club guns" but were extremely tough and well made.
Should start another thread on this but if you like wildcat Martinis, I've included a couple of pics of a large frame I have in a wildcat 577/450. The shoulder of the Martini Henry 577/450 was moved forward so only 1/2" of neck is left & holds 170 grains of Fg or FFg. Still trying to confirm if it is the work of Ellwood Epps who was known to have worked some with the round.





Above are 2 of the wilcat 577/450's on each side of the 22 short, along with some 577 Sniders, 2 regular 577/450's and a 303 British.

Cheers
Jaguar/TheCounty

I'm in the process of helping a friend load some 2R Lovell, he was able to order some 25-20 SS brass and dies are in the making. This rifle is a AYTD pattern action, and has a bull barrel and is stalked in the shutzen style. The rifle needs either sights or a Lyman Targer or Unertl scope to finish it off.

you should be able to order these from Bbertram in Australia. Otherwise, they also list a 300 Sherwood. I have a box of each, but the 25-20's are better formed, and finished. There is a yacht builder down under named Bertram, so be sure to google BBertram.

Man, this zombie thread came back to life way better than most. Thanks to Jaguar for the interesting update.

The Bertram 25-20 single shot brass is also available here. Graf & Sons has it at about $2.20 ea. + S&H. I don't know if anyone else is making it currently, but Bertram seems to have gotten good reviews in general.

__________________
Nick

__________________________
Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Instructor
NRA Patron Member

"First contemplation of the problems of Interior Ballistics gives the impression that they should yield rather easily to relatively simple methods of analysis. Further study shows the subject to be of almost unbelievable complexity." Homer Powley

Would love to see some pics of that AYTD when finished.
Nifty old action, hope she shoots like a dream.
Cheers
jaguar/TheCounty