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  #1  
Old 08-12-2010, 09:08 AM
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New Indiana wildcat


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Has anyone given any thought as to what could be done when the law is changed to 1.80" case? I will be using my Ruger No.1 rebarreled to 460 mag. But I'm sure something more potent than the 358 wssm will be possible. I'm not a wildcater but I find it fascinating.
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Old 08-12-2010, 09:35 AM
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Already in the works. If the law goes into affect I will have Dave Manson regrind the reamer so I can go .175 inch deeper and honestly, that is not really needed. If I just ran the reamer as it is now .175 inch deeper it would increase the web size of the .325 WSM by .002 inch. Not a great deal but why but why over stress your brass for $30?. The reloading dies will stay the same. All I'll need to do is reform 325 WSM brass to 358 HDH-Long, trim, maybe neck ream or turn, and work up new loads.
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  #3  
Old 08-12-2010, 09:59 AM
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Cool! Any idea about what you can get from it in terms of velocity?
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Old 08-12-2010, 10:20 AM
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Welcome to ShootersForum, Bogus Mcall! Rules are simple, be nice and join in.

This was covered in another thread, but a couple of obvious entries will be the 357 Herrett and the 460 S&W, as far as fairly "standard" cartridges. The Herrett is a wildcat, but will be among the more tame offerings being used. It will be among the easiest options, since any .357 Mag carbine can be rechambered for it and load data is readily available.

The 358WSM that BigBore is working with will continue to be just about the best performance you can get, although some will probably start necking down the 460, as well. The two options that intrigue me the most are an existing wildcat, called the 35 IHMSA, and a 338ME case, trimmed and necked up. The 35 IHMSA is a 300 Savage case with the shoulder pushed back slightly and the mouth opened up to .358". Those rounds are 1.871" (35 IHMSA) and 1.890" (338ME) long, so they would require a little trimming to be legal. However the necks on both of those cases could be trimmed w/o becoming too short for a bolt-action or single-shot rifle. For a semi-auto they might not provide enough neck tension to keep bullets seated properly.

Like all other wildcatting situations, the sky is pretty much the limit; as long as your case isn't too long, your wallet is fat...and your wife is very understanding.
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Old 08-12-2010, 01:59 PM
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The 358 Grant 1.8 Reamer was drawn up when they first starting talking about this at the 1st of the year. We just added .175 to the body length.
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Old 08-12-2010, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D Grant View Post
The 358 Grant 1.8 Reamer was drawn up when they first starting talking about this at the 1st of the year. We just added .175 to the body length.
358 Grant v1.8 is kind of a cool name. Sounds like an upcoming software release, but that's probably because I'm one of those computer dorks.

I seem to remember reading some of your posts where you found the 243 and 25 WSSM cases less than desirable when forming new brass for the original 358 Grant, so you ultimately wound up using the 300WSM, as your starting point. Either way, it's fairly obvious that you'd have to start with the longer WSM-type case, to get the full 1.800" length, should Indiana make that the new standard. I'm thinking the 325WSM would be the best starting point, since you're then only .035" away from having the diameter you need. Do you expect to turn or ream the necks in such a beast, if it comes to that?
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Old 08-12-2010, 04:32 PM
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The WSM is 2.1." to start with. The steps to make both of the GRANT's would be the same, just adding .175" to it. It is simple for us to change. Reream chambers and change 1 forming die.
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Old 08-12-2010, 05:42 PM
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I don't even have to change dies on mine DG. Since the only change in the body length is at the head/web area they said I can use the same dies. For certain it won't be a problem on a bolt gun and they don't think it will be a problem on the LR-308. If it does turn out to cause chambering problems by not sizing that last .175 inch of case head/web, THEN I'll get a new sizing die.
Are you going to have to have a whole new reamer done? On mine they said I may not even need a new reamer but the web are would expand an extra .002 inch total due to the taper in the current reamer. Dave Manson said to return the reamer I have to him and for $30 he can re-grind to the new specs. It's not like I have any need for the old reamer any way if they change the law.

B.M.
Neck reaming may or may not be needed. Mine will start with the .325 WSM, form and trim back to 1.8. Once I do that to a test case I can measure the neck wall thickness and if I am at .015 to .020 inch in neck wall thickness I will be good to go. The HDH did not need anything done to it except form over two tapered expanders and run through the sizing die. I like simple which is why I went with the design I did. If more than .020 I'll have Dave Davidson at CH-4D make me a neck reamer. I don't want to neck turn because it is labor intensive and IMO not needed on a hunting class round with a 300 yard limit. I limit it to 300 yards because of the trajectory with a 200 yard zero allows shots to 300 yards without holding off the animal. I am a firm believe in not shooting at a range where you have to hold off the animal to take the shot. I neck turn all the time on the match rifles where a half inch is the difference between first place and twentieth, but if I can avoid it on a hunting type rifle, I'll do it.
If you want every last drop of accuracy you can get and you really think 1/2 inch at 300 yards will make a difference on a deer, go for it. Turn those necks until the cows come home; you won't hurt anything for certain. But, being old and lazy and having done my share of neck turning and reaming, for this old man neck turning is reserved for match cases, neck reaming for hunting class rounds where MOA is more than good enough. My .358 HDH is doing .876 inch for 5 shot groups at 100 with 225 gr. TSX bullets at 2300 fps so if that is not good enough to kill a deer, then I guess I'll just have to let 'em walk.
I have not had Marty crunch the numbers yet on the .358 HDH Long (I have not formed a dummy to measure case capacity) but my guess is I'll gain about 100 fps, 150 fps tops. That would at least get me into the numbers that QL had predicted for the 225 gr. bullets in the first place, 2400 fps.
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Last edited by Big Bore; 08-12-2010 at 05:48 PM.
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  #9  
Old 08-12-2010, 05:57 PM
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Big Bore,

May I ask why you're shooting such a heavy bullet in your 358 HDH? A lot of guys are going with the 180gr SSP or a 200 grain option, like the FTX or Core-lokt. Do you just like the TSX design and you're willing to deal with the heavier recoil and lower MV?

I've gone the other direction in the 358GNR that I'm working with. I am working up loads for the 140gr FTX, to see how they shoot in my barrel, because it has a fairly slow 1:14 rate of twist. Still, it's not like you need more than 140 grains of bullet to kill a deer. IMHO, 225 grains seems a little much, unless it's a dual-purpose load that you'll also hunt hogs or elk with. Just asking why you chose it, not suggesting it's wrong, or anything.
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  #10  
Old 08-13-2010, 02:11 PM
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Simple, accuracy. When I had the barrel chambered I had the throat cut for the longest bullet I would use, the 225 gr. TSX bullet, plus .050 inch. When I did load work up with the 180 and 200 gr. bullets, it turned out I had quite a lot of free bore, think Weatherby, and while free bore increases velocity it usually does nothing for accuracy. I was getting 1.5 MOA at best and was considering doing something drastic. I thought maybe a lot of stresses may had been introduced into the barrel during profiling but because of the way the forend is attached to the barrel nut (glued on) it meant risking damage to the forend to take off the barrel and send it to Sub Zero. So, I tried the longer 225 gr. bullets it was throated for. Voila, sub MOA groups. And as it turns out, if you look at 300 and 400 yard trajectories, at the speeds I am getting out of all the bullets (180 at 2500 fps, 200 at 2350fps, 225 at 2290 fps) and all zeroed at their maximum point blank range, at 300 yards their trajectories are within an inch and at at 400 yards the 225 is actually flatter.
So, in light of that I am going to stick with the 225 gr. bullets. They shoot flatter longer than the 180s and 200s and groups are sub MOA, which makes me very happy, and they retain more energy than the lighter bullets do at long range. So, since the 180, 200, and 225 all expand down to roughly the same velocity, 1600 fps minimum for the 200 and 225, and I think down to about 1800 for lead cored 180, I give up nothing by going to the heavier bullet even for deer hunting. And there is no question I will get complete penetration no matter what I hit or the angle. While I had intended on 180 or 200 gr. bullets for deer hunting, it turns out that there is no really good reason not to use the 225 gr. bullets for everything.
Why the TSX? I have been using either Barnes X bullets or hard cast lead bullets for decades. They have always given me the accuracy combined with the hammer of the gods terminal performance so I have come to swear by them and only tried the 180 gr. Speer bullets because, regrettably, Barnes dropped their 180 gr. X offering in .358 caliber.
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