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  #1  
Old 09-19-2010, 10:52 AM
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Boer 8 reforming dies finally arrived


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I finally got my Hornady custom shop reforming dies. This four (HA) set reforms the 375 Ruger basic cases down to my Boer 8 wildcat cartridge. Hornady has just turned the CNC custom work over to Ben Syring, from Lonnie Hummel. I cried on Ben's shoulder, about the second stage of my set. He did the included example so he understood. I thought there should have been at least one more form die in this set. Ben said I was right. The Hornady 375 Ruger is one tough customer. I'll try and get some photos up on photo bucket, next week. My set was designed to bring the big Ruger Basic down in std. cal. sizes. My first stage does give a questionable 458. It would never make it into production, but it looks O.K. for a custom chambering,with 97 grs. of H2O, to it's mouth. Stage two gives a nominal .400" bullet, dead even with my Rem. 375 H&H water volume of 95grs., and I had to neck expand it for a Barnes .411" 325 gr. bullet. Stage three gives a nominal .358, right at 358 Norma Mag., capacity, and I just loaded a 250 gr. Speer into the sample, with no problems. Stage four is a F.L. sizer die that does double duty. It finishes the reform and loads my wildcat. Primary bullets are 200gr. Speer Hot Cores.
There will be at least one more die in this set, and probably two. I'm working with Ben to do a stage 1.5, die that only changes the taper of the 45 experimental cartridge, without messing with the neck at all. Right now stage two requires a Godzilla amount of force to do both the neck down and tapering required. The second elective die will be a form trim, between stage 3 and the F.L. resize die. This would be to control the length for the final F.L. sizing, and will also finish the sizing, before the case goes into the F.L. size die.
When I got my chambering reamer back with my converted BRNO mil. M98 mausesr rifle, I actually did something that has saved the day for this project. I went out to a local logging machinery business and bought several Grade 8 bolts. Most were 7/8ths x 14, which is the std., and used them to make up DIY forming dies that screwed right into my press. These, and some all thread jobs, got me my bulged out .375H&H cases, that I sent back to Hornady. I only used Powley computer predictions for my starter loads in these. But I did think to buy a one inch grade 8 bolt long enough to make a case holder for my L.E. Wilson case trimmer. Since I couldn't get it precisely centered, I didn't dare run my reamer all the way in, for fear of snapping it. This worked out just fine. I can trim my cases with the hand cranked Wilson, at any stage that has the Boer 8 taper. For the undersized H&H's, I wrapped paper around them like a PP bullet. Once they went through a cream of wheat firnng, they fitted fine. The Basic cases were too darn tough for my DIY reducing dies, and it's only since I started using the factory reform set, that I have been able to use them. It's been tedious, as I have to trim by hand, about a quarter inch of brass. These Ruger 375's grow out to full length 375H&H lengths, on the way down to my tapered, 8mm wildcat.
Beyond trying to do way too much at stage two, I got one other surprise with the new set. Hornady puts a collar into the F.L. die for it's zip spindle, and I've stuck a case over the expander ball by trying to run the overlength stage three all the way into the stage four, F.L. die. Solution, only run it into where you feel it bottom at the case mouth, and then go out into the garage, and trim it with the DIY 1" bolt, reamed case holder in the Wilson lathe type trimmer, back to the nominal 66mm. Then they do go all the way in, but still with undue effort. It seems that although I specified to Lonnie that I was sending undersized Rem 375H&H bulged out fired cases, for them to get the body, shoulder, and neck dimensions, they went farther, and used the Rem's, outside belt dimension, of .528, for their base, instead of the .532 of the chamber print. Even with the clearance factor, these made the die diameter too small, for about half of the belt's width.
So-oo, yours truly, has to swage down the solid heads of these tough Ruger cases a thousandth or so. Ben has advised for me to polish a .030" radius, to replace the .010" radius he had put on the F.L. size die. But he also noted that they did this area up at 60+ Rockwell, so it's going to be slow going.
Now I needed to order more cases, and the Basics are being continually backordered. So I scored three fired .375 Ruger cases from a friend, and with trepidation, went through all four stages of the reform set. The result was three new Boer 8 loaded rounds, but with the 375 Headstamps. The only difference seems to be that the necks are a bit thicker. The forming brings down the Basics to .351-352". This generates a .014+ neck wall. Ben thinks a heavy hunting rifle cartridge shouldn't have less than .013", so I'm doing O.K.. With the fired 375 Rugers, I got a neck wall thickness of .015, or .030" larger than the loaded .323" Speer bullets. Mr. Kiff of Pacific Tool and Gauge, created the reamer from our discussions and e-mails, of .359", at the neck. So even with the slightly thicker, once fired 375 cases, I still have adaquate space, of .004", for the necks to release their bullets, at factory .323 diameters. This job is definitely not a match chamber for factory bullets.
This has been quite a task, and so far, even the starter loaded,"tinny-springy", Rem. H&H brass cases have given impressive results over the chrono. Now, with doing it right, with the correct high pressure brass, will let me work up to the point of head expansion, and then back off. My development work will be with cheap 200 gr. Speer Hot cores., and some Sierra 220gr. Game Kings. The new Speer Deep Curl, is supposed to get the bullet nose into the lands quicker than the more streamlined Hot cores do. Even with Dave Kiff's experience, we still can't get these Hot cores to both work through the mil. magazine and kiss the lands beyond the throat. Speer's contact tech., Mr. Getman, says they have been fielding complaints about this glitch in the 8mm bore cartridges, and feel the new bullets will correct it, once and for all. I'm sticking with IMR 4831 and some H1000 for the heavier Sierras.
In closing, this all may have gone for naught, except for my bit of lucidity on buying the few grade 8 bolts from the local logging supply outfit. This one inch bolt is a few thousandths smaller than Wilson's own holders, but it still works, and it saved the day, with the Rem H&H try cases, and again with dealing precisely with the growth of the necks, working down through the factory reforming die set. These factory dies cost 6 months and $375.. The two needed additions will run about $86 each, and 3 more months. If I can get squared away with a .416 barrel, I'll add a custom .416 F.L. size die for another $120. I've rounded up four M 98 actions, for finishing up this project. If I can get away with it, I'll use factory Ruger 416 or 375 F.L. dies and just neck resize with them. The stage three .358 will be the last of this pride, as I already have a left handed Rem 700, 338 Ultra. My photos should explain the design beyond my humble attempts here. I shot one photo with my Boer 8 along side of a 270 Win.. I kinda think of my "Boer 8", as the 270Win.'s "Stout Friend", as in the ancient, "Gilgamesh Epic's", King's, sidekick's character. This big Ruger 375 case increases the volume so dramatically, that it doesn't have to be any longer, to work as a homologue, of the old favorite 270. These two cartridges pretty well cover most of what can be legally killed in North America. Not every situation, obviously, but a pretty good battery none the less. But much more importantly, look at a 270 Win. and has anyone ever complained about it hanging up in a bad situation. My smith has tuned my old BRNO to where it has the rim of the Boer 8 secured by the claw extractor, within about two inches of the bolt's forward movement. It does need to go most of the way into the chamber to be fully secured between the claw and the ledge opposite it on the bolt face. Mauser controlled feeding isn't completely fool proof, but it comes close. More importantly, you can't hardly ever panic and jam a pointed spitzer bullet straight into the primer of the previous loaded round, that you've short stroked, and never forced it into the circlip or Sako style hook's, push-pull extractors. This is where the new Ruger 375 case really shines, IMHO. I'll leave the rebated rims to my RUM's circlip extractors.
I've had to change my outlooks on several factors in these last six months. I'll try and answer this thread for any questions you folks have. I'm not at home, so the photo bucket stuff is still a week out. I've ordered two more boxes of 375 Ruger brass, now that I know I can form them without destroying their sharp shoulders. They do look really pitiful on the way down, but they work. Natchez Sports had seven boxes, and now they have five. This seems to be the story for this case's availability. It's sparse, in the extreme. The Ruger basic has been unobtainium, for the last few months. Thanx, Carpooler

As promised, I've put some photos onto photobucket. The large bore jobs are just from the reform die set. I'll have to order a F.L. sizer for each one, and use Hornady New Dimension seaters for that caliber. The .416 is the largest I can do with the existing reamer and "Go" gauge. The .450 will require a new reamer and different "go" gauge from PT&G. I lucked out with my .416 variant, as it has the same neck length as the old .416 Rigby, and eyeballing it, close to the same taper. But of course its smaller, shorter, and doesn't have a beefy shoulder to head-space on. But take a look at a work in progress!

http://s1122.photobucket.com/albums/...dge%20collage/

Last edited by carpooler; 01-29-2011 at 02:22 PM. Reason: add photobucket link
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  #2  
Old 09-23-2010, 03:49 AM
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Wow, LOTS of info. That must be a mean 8mm. What do you expect to see in the velocity department?
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  #3  
Old 09-23-2010, 12:51 PM
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expected velocities.

My test bed has the old 29" barrel. I'll compare it with another BRNO with the barrel trimmed to 26", in 8mm x 06. Both of these should get past the throat bugaboo with mil. mausers to a degree. Not completely, though. With the really heavy bullets, ie. the Sierra 220 game kings, I will see about how far I want to compress the H1000. Sometimes the right powder isn't the hottest load. H1000 has the reputation of delivering splendid accuracy, but at somewhat lower velocities. We'll see how it beats my 8x06. Preliminary load delivered 2670 with 68 grains of H1000, behind a 220 gr. Sierra, in the 29" bbl. wildcat. And this was a deliberate light load in a bulged out 375 H&H parent case. My first real handloads will sight in the rifle with 68grs. of IMR 4831 with the 200 gr. Speer hot cores. The F.L. sized Ruger cases are a little tighter than my neck resized H&H jobs, so I want to zero and chrono a box, just to see where I'm at. I can get scads of these at $12.00 per hundred in bulk, so that's my plan. I've got a couple of boxes of 375 Ruger cases coming, so I need to see what the difference in zero will be in relation to the rounds made up from the basics. There's that .002" difference in neck thickness to worry about. My guess is that it will be the heaviest bullets that crowd the overbore Rem Big Eight, the closest. But I should have less recoil, all the same with the smaller case.
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  #4  
Old 11-01-2010, 11:12 AM
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Hornady called?

Boer 8 g'news:
I received a phone call from Hornady's custom desk, last week. This was in answer to my e-mail over buying another form die. We hashed it over and I ordered another die, which we will call the stage 1.5. This will bring down the bulbous .450 cal., of stage one, to a slightly smaller neck, but will put all of the Boer Eight's taper into the cases, ergo no shoulder. Hornady didn't want to even touch the neck/shoulder, but I wanted a file trim die, so we agreed that the case neck had to be supported, for the file to work smoothly. Hopefully, this will even out the incredible amount of effort in the stage two form die, of my four stage set. This single die is only three months out, as opposed to my six month wait for the original four die set.
I have loaded some of my, now correctly formed, Ruger Basic cases with the same Powley predicted loads of 68 grs. of IMR 4831, on top of Speer 250 mag. primers and under Speer 200gr. Hot Cores. It was too rainy to put up my chrono, out at the range, but I did fire enough of these to generate some fired cases, with which to redo my H2O capacities. Now I'm getting an average from three cases, at 87.7grs. of H2O, to their mouths. I noted that one of my cases is 1&1/2 grs. heavier than the other two. I don't know if that's my case forming dies, or just variances in the brass itself. But heavier brass equals a mite less capacity, which needs to be watched carefully. I also noted two thousandths of an inch, spring back of the necks from my generous .359" chamber's neck. I was shooting these along side of my 338 Ultramag, stoked with vintage Speer 275 gr. bullets. Two things became readily apparent. Frst, the 26" bbl'd, 338 Ultra is much louder, and secondly, my wildcat has quite a bit less, felt recoil, shooting both, over sand bags, on a bench.
The online Powley computer I used has the extra pressure scales, so I calculated that I can break 3000 fps with the 200 gr. Speer Hot Core, at quite reasonable pressures. The limits here are the old pre 1935 BRNO's which I found can have rather low Brineel ratings. These new Ruger cases, are all business, and tough as nails. So I'm going to hold things to about 51 KCUP, or about 58K,ish PSIA. With my 29" bbl.'d BRNO, I'd have to send it down to Salt Lake for a $100 carburizing heat treat, before I would dare to work up near the 375 Ruger factory ammo's pressure limits for these reformed Ruger Basic cases. My highly streamlined design, has a lot of taper, which equates to increased back thrust on the bolt face.
Weather permitting, I'll try and put some souped up chrono'd speeds, up here, within a couple of weeks. Only then, will I know just how close I can come to the overbore Rem 8mm Mag., in my old BRNO mil. job.
Thanx, Carpooler.
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Old 11-01-2010, 11:24 AM
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In the interest of brevity: Is this a 375 Ruger with the shoulder moved forward, but ultimately necked down to 8mm ?
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  #6  
Old 11-01-2010, 11:53 AM
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No, the Boer 8 is a highly streamlined cartridge. I tried to ape the 8x68S Schuler, but using the American Ruger 375 Basic case as the parent. It looks like a stout 270 Win.. It has a longer neck than the Schuler at .374". It is .483" at the shoulder, which is 16 degrees. This is half way between the old Schuler at 14.5 deg. and the 17.5 deg. of the 30-06 family of cartridges. As I noted, I'm right at 67.7 grs. of H2O to the mouth. The blocky, short necked 375 Ruger is a bit over 100 grs. of H2O to it's mouth. Both the Ruger parent and my wildcat are 2.59" or 66 mm. long. This cartridge is designed to work through rechambered M 98 LR actions, without messing with the magazine boxes. That means I'm keeping it's O.A.L. at 3.3". At this length, my 200gr. Speer Hot Cores are still jumping a bit to engrave on the riflings. The military 8mm chambers have a really long throat, to utilize the pre-1906 round nosed bullets. Mr. Layne Simpson tested a Rem 700 classic in 8mm Mauser, and found it's American chamber, gained three inches of barrel, over the same handloads fired through a military Mauser. Both Herr Schuler and I have tried to minimize this bugaboo, but I didn't want to mess with the magazine box at all. My Boer 8 and the old Schuler are not interchangeable, as neither will fit into the other's chambers. Thanx Carpooler
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Old 11-01-2010, 01:02 PM
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Well, so much for brevity.

It's a 375 Ruger with a 16 deg. shoulder, necked down to shoot 8mm bullets. Sounds like a heckuvalot of work but most wildcats are. The performance should be good, although I'm guessing not AS powerful as the 8mm Rem Mag?
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Old 11-01-2010, 09:21 PM
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Clarification?

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if !mso]><object classid="clsid:38481807-CA0E-42D2-BF39-B33AF135CC4D" id=ieooui></object> <style> st1\:*{behavior:url(#ieooui) } </style> <![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->Hi Broom, I understood your post to read; "a 375 Ruger with the shoulder moved forward"? The 375 Ruger already has a very short neck IMO.
I became interested in what the Basic case was capable of. I went this way because I figured I would crush those abrupt shoulders. Actually, after fighting the dearth of Basic cases, I tried forming a couple of fired 375 Rugers, and they formed up quite reasonably. So I ordered another hundred virgin 375 Ruger cases, from Natchez Spts., in Tennessee.
I'll try and get some photos posted or at least some links for you to go to.
The 308 Norma Mag. will match the 300 Wby., if loaded to the same pressures. I'm going to find out how much overbore the Rem Big Eight really is. I think I can match the 308 Norma's performance as to the Wby., but maybe not. I would be using max loads that are close to the starting loads of the Big Eight, in a smaller case. Anyway, I wouldn't want to chop up a M 98 Mauser action, to make it feed the Rem 8mm Mag. cartridge. Obviously, I could have hogged the Ruger case out, with less taper and a shorter neck. In fact, forming them down from the cylindrical basic, will give a .33 cal case that is as long as the Big Eight, and probably has as much or a bit more powder capacity. I tried one of these as a dummy round and it fed, chambered, and ejected, perfectly from my L700 Rem 338 Ultra Mag. But why bother with reinventing the wheel? In the old Mil. Mauser 98's, I just may come pretty close to the Remchester long Mag action rifles. Only time will tell. If someone has done up a 8x338 Win., or PMM, as an improved 338 case body, they will have exactly the same capacity as I do. It's just that I wanted a true rimless case to feed the old Mausers. And I wonder how expensive an improved 8x338 win. F.L. die set would be, compared to my custom Hornady wildcat F.L. sizing die? I am using a Hornady New Dimension sleeved Seater die from my orphaned 8mm Mauser Die set. You pays your money, and you takes your chances.
My choice was to do an end run around Obama's and Hillary's game of choking off the importation from Europe of the RWS reloading gear, including their near proprietary 8x68 S Schuler components. IMHO, this alone, makes the Boer 8 worthwhile. Kinda, sorta, my own Boer War, against the Libertards. And those two, will still be a major pest, long after tomorrow's elections
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Old 11-02-2010, 03:03 AM
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Well Carpooler, it sounds like you have something interesting on your hands. I'm fond of 8mm cartridges, just as I am various options in 6.5mm, both of which were neglected by the American market for decades, despite their usefulness. Lately, the 6.5 has been getting some respect, but the 8mm is still largely ignored. I think the 325WSM is one of the best cartridges to be introduced in the last 30 years and yet, the sales for it are dismal and it is likely to go the way of the dodo, before long. I imagine your creation exceeds 325WSM velocity by a fair amount?

The one thing I've noticed about the wildcat cartridges I've played with is, no matter how I obsess over which parent case to use, what case taper and shoulder angle, neck length, thickness or leade; they all just spit a bullet out of a rifled tube. Some do it fast, some are faster and some are incredibly fast, but none of them turn to "magic", at any velocity. The magic is in whether or not the round is efficient, accurate and offers terminal performance that is suitable to your goals.

What were your goals when beginning this particular project? Simply thwarting the Libtards and designing a cartridge that apes the 8x68S, or did you have a particular competition or game animal in mind? Or, were you simply looking for something unique and useful to do with a Mauser action?
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Old 11-03-2010, 10:43 AM
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Thanx for your input Broom

Hello again Broom,
My goal was a new cartridge that wouldn't have any conflicts with existing ones. If I had magnumized it, a 8x68 would have dropped right in. After reading your post, I actually did this test, sort of. I made up two dummies, one from the Ruger and one from the 338 Ultra. Wet and dry of these two ran 99.9grs. H2O, and 101grs. H2O, respectively. Of course the Ultra will shade the Ruger, but not by much. My reamer has a lot of taper in the body, so I looked at deep chambering one rifle. The brass squirts up the neck to 375H&H lengths, so taking this value, I calculated that the base of the case would have .012" windage in this chamber. Yesterday, I worked a 338 Ultra down in my Boer 8 form die set, leaving about 1/2" untouched. It's base is .549", so .532 + .012 = .544". If I did a deep chamber even longer than the 375H&H length, so that I would load a Boer 8 nose, but with a shorty .340" neck, I think I could swage down the Ultra case, a bit and voila! Using 375 or 300 Ultras as the parent, would give me that little bit extra length. But of course they would have to be used in Remchester long actions. I still figure that this is reinventing the wheel. I can't see where this would do anything for the already overbored Rem Big Eight. In fact my secondary goal was to see just how close my M 98 rifles could come to the aforementioned Rem Big Eight. So, unless I get a wild hair, I will stick with the 2.59" long Boer 8 platform, and see where it leads. IMHO, that 8mm streamlined Ultracat, would require a really long barrel, and the Rem Big Eight can eat up 10 inches of throat/bbl., pretty quickly. I know this for a fact, when looked at under a 20X bore scope, after a diet of Barnes solid brass bullets. I don't need a foot of Alligator skin in my bbl's. The Boer 8 is supposed to be a cheapy way to magnumize these old warriors. Thanx. carpooler.
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Old 11-03-2010, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carpooler View Post
Hello again Broom,
My goal was a new cartridge that wouldn't have any conflicts with existing ones. The Boer 8 is supposed to be a cheapy way to magnumize these old warriors. Thanx. carpooler.
I have always been very interested in picking up an old 8x57 Mauser and having it rechambered to 8mm-06. It's not 8x68, but 8x63 is pretty good, especially if it's given the AI shoulder dimensions. Sometimes less truly IS more?
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Old 11-03-2010, 08:55 PM
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Maybe, Broom, maybe!

Hi Broom,
And then, maybe, you should pick up a couple of 8 x 06 rounds and cycle them through your rifle actions. I have a 8x06, and will be doing comparisons with my wildcat, using the same bullets. If I was doing that one over, I'd make it an Ackley 8mm Mauser. Reason isn't obvious, but here goes. A true blue 8x06 would be a Springfield O3-A3, recut to 8mm bore. Only a neck-throat reamer would be employed. Then the original 8x57 wouldn't quite chamber. But since 99.9% of these were 8x57 to start with, the reamers are oversized. If it started out as a 8x57 mauser, then no reaming will preclude accidently chambering the old orig. cartridges. This is very badd! I almost did it earlier this year, and stopped myself, with the bolt nearly closed. You'd get the same problem with the 8 x 284's. I believe you'd be much happier with the PMM, version. This way the old 8x57's won't line up into the claw extractors. If you're willing to make do with the AI 8x06's sharp shoulders, the PMM should work fine for you. It's just that I wanted a silky smooth CRF cartridge to feed through the old mausers with minimum tuning. Like I said in my earlier post, it looks like a stout 270 Win.. An 8x61 S&H magnum has been around since WWII, and it also fits the bill. Unless you are using bullets expressly made for the Rem. Big Eight, like my own selection of Speer 200gr. hot cores, you would get better penetration in live flesh, at velocities closer to factory 8mm Mauser ammo. If you want flat trajectories, then you need some real room in the boiler to push the heavier Rem Big 8 bullets at top speeds. The Speer 170gr. bullets are designed for 50,000 C.U.P. and run with the thirty magnums, in the 8x06. But at 200grs.+, the belted cases take up the slack, if the bullet stays together down range. So, I don't have to down load my 200gr. Hot Cores, to get good penetration. A word of caution, I just don't know if you can do an AI 8x06, and then re-chamber up to the PMM. For that reason, alone, I went with the std. 8x06. Then I got interested in the larger, beltless, Ruger Basic case, and you know the rest.
Thanx, CP.
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Old 11-04-2010, 04:05 AM
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CP, I think you missed the emphasis I placed on the final statement in my previous post. Were I to build an 8mm-06AI, it would not be meant to drive the heaviest bullets fast enough to expand well at extreme range, it would be intended to improve, if only slightly, on the original performance of its predecessors. I do not aspire to own the 8RM, 8x61 Sharp & Hart, 8x68 Schuler, or any other big-jugged magnum monster. If I were to get something in 32 caliber, with the magnum moniker, it would be a 325WSM, which I consider to be an excellent cartridge. It would be the most sensible solution for this entire thread, since it is roughly 200fps faster than a standard 8mm-06, but doesn't beat you senseless, like the 8RM.

I tried to let this slide, but I have to ask why you made the statement, "A true blue 8x06 would be a Springfield O3-A3, recut to 8mm bore." ? To the best of my knowledge, the 8mm-06 came about when GI's returning from WWII wanted a ready supply of cases to fire from their captured Mauser rifles, so they had the chamber lengthened. In my humble opinion, a "true blue" 8mm-06 does not start life as an 03A3. From a purely practical standpoint, a shadetree gunsmith can ream out the 8x57 chamber to 8mm-06 (or AI), but he surely cannot cut the entire bore from .308" to .323"!

To better understand why I prefer milder iterations of the various 8mm offerings, just ponder my signature.
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Old 11-04-2010, 11:05 AM
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"Step into my parlor-----"

Hi Broom, I've already been where you are thinking to go. But this thread has got you thinking too, so what I was warning you, about, is this. A real 8 x 06, shouldn't let a 8x57 chamber, anymore than a 30-06 Springfield or Garand would let a German pick up round chamber on the battlefield. The 8x57 dates from 1880, and obviously we know where the 30-03 chamber dates from. To avoid conflicts, the Army made sure the German round wouldn't chamber in our rifles. So in confounding this sound move, by adapting the readily available 30-06 case into bring back M98's, actually created a dangerous hermaphrodite chamber. It's actually a German 8 x 61 or 8 x 63. Otherwise running a 30-06 reamer with an 8mm pilot, would, I believe, create a bend in the body of the case. I may be wrong on this, but I seem to remember seeing photos of 8 mm Mauser rounds that were shot in over-sized 30-06 rifles. Not very pretty. Apparently those oversized bullets did swage down and pass through the 30 cal. bbls.. Again, in the 8x06, a 8x57 is the right diameter, but the head space is wildly wrong. If you re bored and re-rifled a Springfield rifle, and then neck throated it to your 8x06, I don't believe a 8 x 57 would actually chamber, but I may be wrong on this. I don't have a bolt action 06 rifle handy to try a couple of dummy 8x57 rounds in. My father's Rem 740 auto 30-06 would probably chamber the 8 x 57 Mauser, easily. It's chamber was really oversize.
As to your second point, yes, yes, and yes. A German gentleman I've been corresponding with, has some real neat ballistic software, and he claims 90grs. of H2O should be the ideal volume for an 8mm cartridge in a M 98 Mauser rifle. Georg Schuler went to the outside limit with his 8 x 68, and I stuck with a longer neck, and the Ruger's 66mm length. I didn't want the conflict of someone loading the Schuler round into my wildcat's chamber, by mistake. I've also resolved to never have 8x57 and 8 x 06 ammo on the shooting bench at the same time. I also agree I'm not trying to gin up another 8mm Rem Mag.. I just think there's room between the AI 8x06 and the Big Eight, to slip in my wildcat. If I can get close to Rem's velocities out of my redo of the old military chamber, with less recoil, so much the better. It becomes a heck of a value, for a CRF big game rifle. I'm thinking my recoil values should be more like a 338 x 06, than either the 308 Norma, or 338 Win.. The Norma has the added recoil velocity, and the 338 win., has the bigger push. My wildcat is a hunting round, not something to shoot across the bench all morning. The Europeans put great stock in their 8mm's shooting the 200, and 220 class of bullets. Remington has discontinued the original 220 gr. loading for their Big Eight, leaving only their 185gr. factory round. And all of the factory Rem 338 Ultra, is loaded with 250 gr. bullets. I feel that somewhere between the factory S & B 196 gr. loadings, and the discontinued Rem. Big Eight 220 grs. ammo, there should be a sweet spot for these weights of bullets in a 8 lb. scout style sporter. So maybe you should try some hot S&B 196 gr. ammo in your rifle before you chop it up.
Like I said before, if I had it to do over, I'd have had my Smith, do the AI 8x57, instead of going with the 8 x 06. And I really don't want to even contemplate, shooting one of those hot S&B rounds in my 8 x 06 chamber, by accident. So---, "said the spider to the fly".
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