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  #61  
Old 03-26-2011, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broom_jm View Post
Most hunters shoot 20-50 bullets a year and they're happy with 100 yard groups around an inch. Match shooters shoot hundreds or thousands of bullets a year and need groups measured in tenths of an inch. Big companies make money on game bullets, but they make better margins on quality match bullets. Apples n' oranges.
How do you explain the 30-30 being in the top 10 ammo sales? Heck i probably dont put more than 30-40 rounds a year through it, i suppose there is silhouette shooting, but i dont think many of those guys shoot factory ammo. Now, as far as .277 bullets go, wouldnt the .270-08 use the same bullets as the .270 win and WSM? If that is the case, it would only increase .277 bullet sales.

The thing is, this thread is based soley on speculation, nobody here really KNOWS how the .270-08 would sell, THAT is a fact.

Last edited by BarkBuster20; 03-26-2011 at 03:56 PM.
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  #62  
Old 03-26-2011, 05:18 PM
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270 Rcm

I've groused on several threads about the bleeping rebated rims on 284 Win. Brass. So it is for the WSM's and RSAUM's. But either a 30WCF rim on a 55 mm. 284 case, or a 55mm RCM in 270 caliber, would steal the thunder of the pink elephant in the living room, which is the 6.5mm Swede. By using the Swede's twist, heavier slugs would generate more better smackdown, than the little Scandinavian number. No way this is going to smoke out the larger high velocity cartridges, but it could stabilize heavier bullets. Think 55mm at 55KCUP, with a little gentler shoulder, than the 338 RCM's. I can guarantee from my Boer 8 wildcat development, that this Ruger Case is almost impossible to pull the rim off of in a reloading press. As you push things out of smaller holes in your barrels, your case shoulders need to relax a bit, to help the bullets along their way. This RCM case can be given enough taper to really make it come up out of a Mauser box magazine like a greased pig. The factories have out wildcatted the wildcatters in recent years, so now we are looking at balanced cartridges again. The Swede is a little odd, at .263", but it is wonderfully balanced. So my call is that while the 270-08 doesn't ring many bells, a little larger 270 RCM with a 180gr. bullet, just might take wing, between the old 270 Win, and the rebated Rem and Win short mags. This probably means a one in eight or nine inch twist. The shorty 7mm mags do indeed take up the slack from the older military 7mm Mauser factory loads, and the Rem 7-08 matches the old Mauser, albeit at higher pressures. I always felt that my dad was just too good a marksman for his old Mauser 270 Winchester. He could cut an elk's heart out in a running shot in the brush, but the beast didn't understand that it was dead. A heavier slug, at a little slower velocity, might turn the tables here. His 270 didn't work as he shot em so cleanly, that he didn't always break ribs. We always felt that Mr. O Conner was just shooting to break bones and generate secondary projectiles. But in steep county, a nice mulie buck can go a long ways down hill, with many broken bones. Our late season chucker hunters were finding way too many of these nice racks down in the bottoms of the Snake River Canyon after the deer season.

Last edited by carpooler; 09-05-2013 at 09:35 AM. Reason: typo .363 should be .263
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  #63  
Old 03-26-2011, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarkBuster20 View Post
How do you explain the 30-30 being in the top 10 ammo sales? Heck i probably dont put more than 30-40 rounds a year through it, i suppose there is silhouette shooting, but i dont think many of those guys shoot factory ammo. Now, as far as .277 bullets go, wouldnt the .270-08 use the same bullets as the .270 win and WSM? If that is the case, it would only increase .277 bullet sales.

The thing is, this thread is based soley on speculation, nobody here really KNOWS how the .270-08 would sell, THAT is a fact.
The point of the earlier discussion is that there are few match bullets available in 27 caliber and there are few match rifles built to shoot those bullets that don't exist. The question in my mind is which is the cause and which is the effect.

Are you suggesting that 30/30 bullets are in the top 10 of those sold each year? I'm talking about component bullets, either those used in factory ammo or those bought by handloaders. I would have to see some statistics before I could believe that, simply because those flat-nosed bullets have limited applications, whereas pointed bullets can be used in many different rifles.

As far as boxed ammo goes, I suppose the 30/30 sells pretty well, but from a bullet manufacturer's perspective, they probably don't have a good margin on those sales...especially at the price of 30/30 cartridges. If a 270-08 was developed and used for match competition I think you're right, that it would increase sales significantly.
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  #64  
Old 03-27-2011, 06:18 AM
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After thinking about this some more, I think the biggest reason why the 270-08 isn't popular is because most deer hunters are happy with a long action rifle. Some hunters even like a long "bolt throw" and the appearance of a torpedo-like round.

Personally I prefer the short action format and rapid handling characteristics that go with it. Maybe a new generation of shooters - after they mature from their tactical phase - or 270 WSM phase - will create a modern interpretation of the great 270 Winchester - based instead on the shorter 308 Winchester case. Kind of like an "environmentally friendly" version of the 270.

Target shooters shoot more shots than hunters - but there are more hunters than target shooters. Also need to consider potential for new rifle sales not just bullet sales. The major rifles makers are more interested in selling rifles and factory ammo than they are in selling barrels or bullets.

Yes the extensive choice of bullets in the 6.5mm and and 7mm calibers has an influence for sure - but a someone else already pointed out - this doesn't explain why the 270 Winchester remains popular.

Need to shoot a deer in the lungs - not heart - to drop it in its tracks. Breaking ribs is not a good plan because it is unreliable.

The 6.8 SPC has potential to play a part if adopted by armed forces. Interestingly the Jordanian Army announced in 2010 that it will put it into service. Below is a quote taken from 6.8 SPC Wikipedia page:

"In tests, it was determined that a 6.5mm projectile had the best accuracy, but a 7mm projectile had the best terminal performance. Further tests showed that a 6.8mm projectile was the best compromise between the two, providing accuracy, reliability and terminal performance up to 500 meters. The combination of the cartridge case, powder load, and projectile easily outperformed the 7.62x39mm Soviet cartridge, with the new cartridge proving to be about 200 ft/s (61 m/s) faster.[7] The resulting cartridge was named the 6.8 Remington Special Purpose Cartridge due to the size of its projectile and the fact that it was based on the .30 Remington case."

I find that interesting because I figure that as case capacity increases, the optimal bullet diameter for accuracy increases. Maybe a .277" bullet would deliver the best accuracy the 308 Win case. I wish I knew. If nothing else, the 6.8 SPC development proves that the .277" diameter bullets are a good "general purpose" choice for hunting a moderate centerfire rifle velocities (between say 2500 and 3000 fps).

Yes this thread is largely speculation - but great ideas can originate from speculation. And it's fun!

One more thought. I have a 6.8 SPC model 700 that I've been thinking of rechambering to a full length .277" caliber version of the 30 Remington (2.05" case length). Would keep the same neck and shoulder dimensions as the 6.8 SPC. Reason for do this is that I am frustrated that I can't squeeze 3000fps out of the standard 6.8 SPC case. I'd also make better use of the internal magazine length. Yes this cartridge would NOT have a future for obvious reasons - but I'm real curious to see velocity and accuracy - compared to the 6.8 SPC and 270-08.
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  #65  
Old 03-27-2011, 10:47 AM
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I don't want to start a hoohaw about the difference in a 25 Souper and a 257 R, Snake...but there is only ~2 1/2 to 3 gr DIFFERENCE in case volume between the two.

Check out Accurate Arms...there is a discussion on the merits of those two going on right now.

As far as the difference in a 270-308 and a 7-08, you can measure it with a pair of calipers....0.277" and 0.284"...0.007". The rest is just smoke and mirrors and the desire to "prove" something that really isn't there.

Pick the one you want, for YOUR pleasure and YOUR reasons and go enjoy...THAT'S all that matters anyway. Why argue at all??, just go do it.

Personally...nowdays for a short action I would pick the RSM or WSM cases and REALLY get some velocity difference. I mean WHY argue over the relatively miniscule differences between the 270-08 and 7-08 when the 270 WSM and 7 WSM is right there to be bought/rechambered relatively cheap so you can argue the SAME "stuff" between those two cases.

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  #66  
Old 03-27-2011, 11:08 PM
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answer to NFG

In one fell swoop. What I was trying to get across, is that the 6.5 x 55 Swede is already there. An old friend had one of the carbines that the importer had to braze a cone onto the muzzle to get it long enough to import it into the US. A little carbine made from a 96 variant or the M-48 Yugo, would accept a streamlined RCM number in 27 caliber, with CRF. IMHO, this would be worthwhile, as the WSM's and RSAUM's seem to be more push feed cartridges. I succeeded in getting a 6mm Rem BR round to pop up in front of the claw in one of my long action M 98's, and I had to push it back out with a cleaning rod. I developed my Boer 8 to have a little more whump than the 8x68S Schuler, and I don't see why one of you can't do the same for a 270 RCM. Just keep the case taper close to the original cartridges in your CRF Mausers. I made up a factory Ruger 375 dummy, and that has to pop up out of my converted Mauser feed rails, just like a Rem Big 7. A Swede with a worn out barrel would be a nice candidate for a rebore, but remember it's case is larger at the base than any 308 Win. or 8mm Mauser family members. So a 270 RCM wildcat would be a nice fit. I would throat it for the long bullets, just as the 6BR Norma is different from my earlier 6mm Rem BR.
Also, I recently had a chance to handle a Carcano made for Japan in 6.5mm Jap. This was the old Carcano with the noisy safety, but the bottom metal was strictly Mauser. The Italians got off one shipment before WWII, and the Imperial Japanese Navy grabbed every last one, before they ever got off the docks in Tokyo. This little 6.5mm x 50 R cartridge also has a very quick twist, with a bullet seated way out beyond the case mouths. So the longish 6BR Norma throat has been done before. But this is one 6.5 that I wouldn't dare modify. It's really just a curiosity. The real 6.5mm Arisaka is one tough customer, but these Japanese Carcano half breeds are unknown country.
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  #67  
Old 03-28-2011, 03:18 PM
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I was always going to do a 270-08 on an 88 win but I chickened out and built my first 260 on one instead.
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  #68  
Old 03-28-2011, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broom_jm View Post
The point of the earlier discussion is that there are few match bullets available in 27 caliber and there are few match rifles built to shoot those bullets that don't exist. The question in my mind is which is the cause and which is the effect.

Are you suggesting that 30/30 bullets are in the top 10 of those sold each year? I'm talking about component bullets, either those used in factory ammo or those bought by handloaders. I would have to see some statistics before I could believe that, simply because those flat-nosed bullets have limited applications, whereas pointed bullets can be used in many different rifles.

As far as boxed ammo goes, I suppose the 30/30 sells pretty well, but from a bullet manufacturer's perspective, they probably don't have a good margin on those sales...especially at the price of 30/30 cartridges. If a 270-08 was developed and used for match competition I think you're right, that it would increase sales significantly.
I meant to say the 30-30 is in the top ten for ammo sales. but wouldnt the .270-08 use the exact same bullets as the .270 win?
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  #69  
Old 03-29-2011, 05:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarkBuster20 View Post
I meant to say the 30-30 is in the top ten for ammo sales. but wouldnt the .270-08 use the exact same bullets as the .270 win?
If a 270-08 was developed as a hunting round, yes, it would use the same bullets as a 270 Win. That is not likely to happen as there are other options readily available that exceed the level of performance it would offer. There is also already an incredibly similar offering in the 7mm-08, which is just .007" larger. Just as the 270 Win kept the 280 Remington from doing particularly well, the 7mm-08 would keep a 270-08 from selling like hotcakes.

The more salient point here is that there are almost no match bullets made in .277" that could be used by wildcatters or benchrest shooters looking for a magic combination of case capacity, bullet weight, recoil and ballistic coefficient who might be tempted to try building a 270-08. Look at the match bullets in 22, 26 and 30 caliber and you will find there are no equivalents in 27 caliber. Without those bullets, the match shooters are not going to build the wildcat. Without a 270-08 wildcat out there winning matches, there is little to no incentive for a manufacturer to offer one as a hunting cartridge.

Do you see what we're trying to say?
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  #70  
Old 03-29-2011, 03:45 PM
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Hi Broom, I typed out two pages in trying to answer you, but then realized that I had put some really prescient info into that post. I'll try and PM you, with it, so as not to let this all out of the bag. IMHO, you're not seeing the forest for the 'brass' trees. What I came up with is a streamlined version of the 300 RCM trimmed back to 1.75 inches, and necked down to .270 caliber. I made a soldered mockup and got 48.5 grains of H2O, including the meniscus. This means that the big Ruger case head will fill just about any military bolt face from WWII, and give a cartridge with the same split personality as the 6mm Rem BR, vs. the Norma 6mm BR. With light bullets of 100-110 grains and a real slow twist, you can get 3050 fps, and about a ton of striking energy, and with 170 gr. R.N.'s, you get a round pretty close to the .256 Mannlicher, or 6.5 Jap. With an 8 lb. rifle, it looks like about 8 lbs. of free recoil with the 100gr. bullets, and about 11 lbs. of recoil with the 170s at at about 2300 fps. With my wildcat's taper and 16deg. shoulders, I think this will give my G.S. a fighting chance to get it to feed reliably from a M-98 Mauser's magazine, or a 303 Brit's. There just isn't any quick and reliable second shot from my 6mm Rem B.R. in one of my M-98's. So, this is pretty much a 6BR on steroids. It's just a smidge longer, with the 100 gr. spitzer, seated to the base of it's neck. Compared to a std. case head, it's right in there with the 277 Titus. This makes it in between a 250 Savage, and the 300 Savage. I like the light bullets, in my 1 in 14 twist 6mm RemBR, so I'll use a slow twist 270 bbl. when I get around to putting one together. Velocity by online Powley computers seem to start out at about 3050fps with a 100 gr. bullet, using IMR 3031. The heavy weights use IMR 4831 and should recoil about like our American factory loadings in the 8mm Mauser, which is close to a 30-30 Win.. But so far, this is all speculation. The only barrel blank I have laying around is a 1 in 12 twist .257 bore, which is probably only good for 87gr. and 100gr. spitzer bullets. I just can't see the need for a 25-303 Savage Rimless. But as rimless cases that fit various military rimmed cartridge bolt faces, I think there may be a niche for a couple of these small bores on the RCM cases. Like I mentioned to Broom, this short bratty 270 wildcat, may do for surplus military rifles what the 277 Titus did for the fine old M-99 Savage levers, many years ago. My calculations show that the 100, to 110 gr. bullets seem to be at the sweet spot. I'm seeing about 500 foot lbs. remaining out at 500 yds., at least on the online calculators. But there's a lot of drop to hold over for, too.

Last edited by carpooler; 06-21-2011 at 06:09 PM. Reason: further experimentation on this problem
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  #71  
Old 06-24-2013, 05:32 PM
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6.8 bullets (270 cal)

Boys everything you say about the 270 caliber not as good as another is irrelivent. The fact is that the 6.8 bullet is supperior to the 7mm ballistically. For more energy on target 6.8mm bullet is supperior to the 6.5 mm cartridge. Some of you say why make a 6.8x 51 cartridge, the main reason is because it would be better than the 308, the 7mm-08, or the 260 Rem. Thats a pretty **** good reason to make it!!
The ammo companies would have to offer more 6.8mm bullets. Long range 800-1500yrd shooters would appreciate the new cartridge. Hunters would not, all though it would make a dandy low recoil short action hunting rifle.
In a SHORT ACTION RIFLE simply stated it would be better than anything offered today!
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  #72  
Old 06-24-2013, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ticklicker View Post
Boys everything you say about the 270 caliber not as good as another is irrelivent. The fact is that the 6.8 bullet is supperior to the 7mm ballistically. For more energy on target 6.8mm bullet is supperior to the 6.5 mm cartridge. Some of you say why make a 6.8x 51 cartridge, the main reason is because it would be better than the 308, the 7mm-08, or the 260 Rem. Thats a pretty **** good reason to make it!!
The ammo companies would have to offer more 6.8mm bullets. Long range 800-1500yrd shooters would appreciate the new cartridge. Hunters would not, all though it would make a dandy low recoil short action hunting rifle.
In a SHORT ACTION RIFLE simply stated it would be better than anything offered today!
Welcome to the forum.

Ballisticians agree that for any given weight bullet, 7mm projectiles have just about the highest possible BC, but that is not really the important point here. The fact of the matter is that if what you claim was true, the 270-08 would be a common cartridge. That it isn't is testimony to the prose of one Jack O'Connor, and the effectiveness of the perfect thin-skinned medium game cartridge; the 270 Winchester. That's just how it is.
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  #73  
Old 07-16-2013, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broom_jm View Post
Welcome to the forum.

Ballisticians agree that for any given weight bullet, 7mm projectiles have just about the highest possible BC,.
High BCs of existing bullets. The 6.5s are very high too and the 277 is between the two. Any caliber using the same formula related in calibers long, can have the same BCs to a point. Bullets in the range of 6.5, .277,.284 can all have the same BC the only difference being a little weight and length. A .277 using the same formula as a .284 will have the same BC but be lighter which means it could be propelled faster out of the same 308 sized case. The 139gr .264 Lapua has a BC around .640. A similar BC .284 bullet may weigh 168gr and be 150fps slower than the 139 would be out of a 260 Remington. In the end a faster bullet with the same BC will have better exterior ballistics.
Ballisticians that work for Berger, Lapua, Sierra or JLK know the formula for the perfect bullet. Formed bullets as in lead core swaged bullets have some limits. The nose can only be apx 3 calibers long. They say the best OA length of bullet is apx 5 calibers long. Boat tails apx .5 calibers with a 7 degree boat tail.
Advertised BCs aren't always the true BC, bullets with a true BC of over .640 are few and far between.
As far as a 270-08, it would be a good round, especially for those that like the 130gr hunting bullets. Higher BCs than the 308s and faster too.
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  #74  
Old 07-21-2013, 11:44 AM
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270 Savage

I don't remember the year (1950's I think), but this wildcat was used in the model 99 in 300 Savage brass.
I saw it in the book "Cartridges of the World" 10th edition I think.
If I recall it launches a 130grn @ 2900 fps and a 150grn @ 2750 fps.
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  #75  
Old 07-21-2013, 12:55 PM
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277 Titus

This little jewel was wildcatted into rear locking Model 99 Savage Levers. It only loses a couple hundred feet per second from the full length 270 Win. And part of that loss must be the rear locking Savage lever's breech bolt. It's very close to a 1.75 inch RCM necked down to .277. I think it split the difference between the 250-3000, and the 300 Savage, in those same Model 99 Lever Rifles. The old Utah G.S. named Titus, may have wanted a Left Hand compatible .270 caliber rifle, with which to go after their big Mule Deer Bucks, or a distant Pronghorn Antelope.

I know from past experiences, that putting 180 gr. bullets into a 300 Savage reload, will only get you 30-30 Win. power levels and trajectories.
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  #76  
Old 07-21-2013, 05:45 PM
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P.O. Ackley has loads and information on it in his books..

Its a real nice round, but with the advent of the recent 7-08 there is little need for it anymore, they are so close in every respect that would I'd opt for the established factory round.

But I'm an old curmudgeon and would never try to duplicate my old mod. 54 in 270 win....
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  #77  
Old 09-04-2013, 09:00 PM
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270/308 imp

WELL GUYS
I HAVE been shooting my 270/308 imp for 25 years now
40 degree SHOULDER 10 THOU BOADY TAPER
I can tell you with 100 up the 130 GR it can be 50 to 75 FPS faster then the 270 win in a 24 inch barrel
DONT lose site of the spin rate one in ten
When the bullet hit some thing solid it throws off metal every where
It is one of the best killing guns I have owned
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  #78  
Old 09-05-2013, 02:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrise View Post
WELL GUYS
I HAVE been shooting my 270/308 imp for 25 years now
40 degree SHOULDER 10 THOU BOADY TAPER
I can tell you with 100 up the 130 GR it can be 50 to 75 FPS faster then the 270 win in a 24 inch barrel
DONT lose site of the spin rate one in ten
When the bullet hit some thing solid it throws off metal every where
It is one of the best killing guns I have owned
How long is the neck on your 270/308 Improved?

Even more interesting would be the measured case capacity, in H2O. I'd be curious to see if it's got a greater capacity than a standard 270 Win, given the velocity numbers you're quoting.

Spin rate and the terminal performance of a bullet is not going to be remarkably different from these two cartridges.

Last edited by broom_jm; 09-05-2013 at 02:29 AM.
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  #79  
Old 09-05-2013, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by myt-bird View Post
I think just about everything that can be done with the 08 cases has been done. One thing, however, that I've never heard of is a wild cat of the .308 necked down to .277. Someone has to have tried this haven't they? Anyone know about it?
I don't think that would be very practical since .277 is such an oddball caliber.
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Old 09-05-2013, 10:19 AM
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Stoner friendly

So Dakota, impractical maybe, reliable, hopefully. Karl at Black Hole Weaponry looked at my dummy 1.75 x .277 wildcat RCM case and thought it would feed O.K. through a still in development, AR-15 Magnum Upper. ( left hand). They tried and gave up on the 6mm BR. The Stoner system uses an appendage on the front of the breech bolt, to strip out the cartridge from the mag's lips. The 6BR gets cockeyed, too many times to be reliable. Mine may funnel its way into the chamber, more reliably.

Unfortunately this magnum upper development is now on their back burner, due to the general panic over standard AR production. When things get back to normal, I'll head back over to Moses Lake.

I do have a PT&G finish reamer and GO head space gauge on order from Dave Kiff. This will be a customized 243 x 300 RCM. I also need an intermediate form die around 270, so I made up a single blade reamer to do this. But I have to get it heat treated without too much warping. I used 5/8ths rod and I only have a half inch chuck in my drill press. At least I still have my lathe centers in each end of it.

The future 270 x 1.73" AR round should have the same split personality of the Norma and Rem BR's. It will only work in the AR with a slow twist and short bullet.

The reason I hit on the .277 is that because of the Eko Freakos, lead may be on the way out. Copper bullets which don't lose any weight in animals, and probably will pass clean through them, anyway, still show a slippage down from the 6.5mm's. Solid copper just isn't as dense as lead cored bullets.

I took Federal 270 Win. ammo with the 110 TTSX Barnes to Africa, in May of 2012, and was delighted with the performance they gave me. This was the closest I could come to testing out my .277 x RCM wildcat idea. The .243 version will be to re-chamber my 6mmRemBR, to get something which will feed slicker, through my Mauser M 98 action.
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