» Advanced

Go Back   Shooters Forum > Rifle and Rifle Cartridges > Wildcat Cartridges
Register FAQ Members List Donate Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read



Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-14-2010, 10:29 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Nericia in Sweden
Posts: 146
.30-30Ackley Improved


Registered Users do not see the above ad.


It would be interesting to hear what experiences you have with the Ackley Improved version of the .30-30. I have searched the forum, and found some interesting stuff, that indicated, that it could be woth the work to Ackleyfie the gun.

My main interest is among the heavier bullets as 170 or 180 grains. Are there any observable differences in prestanda, without exceeding the pressure limits? I don't want to blow the gun into smithereens.

Background to my question is a wish to make a .30-30 legal for moose here - we need at least 1475 ft/lbs110 yards or for that, or 2270 fps at the muzzle with Speer 170 grs FN. Reaming to AI is one solution, another is the Hornady Leverution cartridge - but the plastic tip is too ugly to be put in a classic rifle.

Pete

P.S. I have found an old thread, which I started myself six years ago - I had forgotten it. If there is something to add to that, which was written it that old thread, I would be grate ful. Old thread: http://www.shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=16148
__________________
...don't count out lever guns such as the Winchester Model 88. This rig, chambered to .308 Win, will handle nearly any deer situation.

Last edited by Old Shatterhand; 11-14-2010 at 11:44 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-15-2010, 03:03 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,596
I believe the way to go in your situation is with the 150-grain Barnes X. You can push the new TSX bullets as fast as most any conventional bullet and they penetrate beyond any expectation.

I am sure I gave you a few links before but here are a few more. If you can locate a 26Ē barreled 30-30 you almost have a 30-30 Improved. I added two links from Leverite as I could not find threads from taylor. I did this just to be fair. While I and Assassin and few others are enthusiastic supporters of the 30-30AI others have not had quite such good results. I also believe I would shoot most anything with the 170-grain Speer flat nose bullet but this one is now obsolete and I donít have any experience with the new deep curl bullets from Speer.
Here are a few links and there are a few other links in these threads. The other threads will give you more links. There are many threads on the 30-30AI.

There is no good 180-grain bullet for the 30-30 as the 180-grain bullets begin to narrow immediately after their design seat depth and they are designed for larger cartridge cases with a longer COAL.
The best two bullets for your use are probably the 150-grains Barnes X and the 170-grain Nosler Partition.

http://shootersforum.com/showthread....light=.30-30ai

http://shootersforum.com/showthread....light=.30-30ai

http://shootersforum.com/showthread....light=.30-30ai

http://shootersforum.com/showthread....light=.30-30ai
__________________
slim
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-16-2010, 09:08 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Nericia in Sweden
Posts: 146
Many thanks for the links - I enjoyed a great reading during my morning tea today. :-)

During my web searches, I have at several places found a loads for the standard .30-30 with 170 grs Speer bullet and 34 grs RL-15 to 2300 fps. Is that realistic if one consider to keep the pressure limits?

But I think for my purpose, the AI version seems to be the way to go.

Pete
__________________
...don't count out lever guns such as the Winchester Model 88. This rig, chambered to .308 Win, will handle nearly any deer situation.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-16-2010, 02:56 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,596
Probably a lot more threads on the Beartooth forum about the 30-30AI. There were quite a few of us shooting the cartridge at one time.
Under the advanced search, try .30-30AI and then my name. I have posted on most of the 30-30AI threads.

I don’t know why I quit posting to the 26” barrel thread now, distracted by the 327 Federal or the 308 Marlin I guess.

I have loaded 34.1 grains of Reloder 15 in the standard 30-30 quite a bit.
In the 16” trapper, 34.1 grains of Reloder 15 gave me 2,076 fps.
The 20” barrel Black Shadow preferred 33.1 grains of Reloder 15 for 2,189 fps
34.1 grains of Reloder 15 gave me 2,221 fps from the 20” barrel but for some reason not quite so good accuracy. The Black Shadow with its plastic stock is hard for me to shoot well from the bench.
The 26” barrel rifle likes the 34.1 grain load and gave us 2,339 fps from the Buffalo Bill rifle and 2,350 fps from the Grade 1 Centennial.

Gunsmith Mic McPherson set his daughter up with a Savage pump rifle in 30-30AI for her first elk hunt and she took a cow using the original smooth side 150-grain Barnes X .
__________________
slim
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-17-2010, 04:40 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 24
If your gun is a Marlin 336, look at the 307 winchester. Same outside demintions as the 308 but a rim and extra thick brass amkes it suitable for that action. But, with this, there are no fireforming needs ie shooting and loading back. While I own several "Acklimated" rounds (.257 AI and 6mm International Improved) I have learned that a gun may or may not shoot the fireforming rounds into the same vacinity as the finished product. I have been lucky on this reguard as I can line my guns in fireforming the standards and be right on when I get them loaded back with the new sexy shouldered 40 degree cases and boosted capacity.

The 307 winchester would be a great conversion for anyone that has a Marlin 336 and I have seen a couple done on those. If you had a gun that didnt have the (I hate to say...pressure building) Micro-groove barrel, all the better.

Oh and if its a Winchester 94..........forget it. 30-30AI much better choice.

Just my 3 and a half cents.

Tommy
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-17-2010, 05:25 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,596
The 307 Winchester is unsuitable for the Marlin 336 action. Despite what the popular opinion is the Marlin 336 action will not accept a steady diet of the full power 307 Winchester. Seattlerdwarrior has proven this with three Marlin 336 rifles re-chambered and re-barreled for the 307 Winchester.
Myron Rockett posted on the Leverguns forum that his standard Model 94 Winchester was still going strong after being converted to the 444/308 wildcat back in 1979. Rocketts rifles have been shooting a steady diet of full charge loads for all these years.

When loading the 30-30AI above our personal stop points we found the Winchester Model 94AE would accept one full grain of powder more than the Marlin 336 rifle.
I have not found the Micro-groove rifling to create a pressure problem but the Micro-groove barrels will generally give us slightly higher velocities over standard rifling.
__________________
slim
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-18-2010, 10:28 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Nericia in Sweden
Posts: 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Iorg View Post
--- Myron Rockett posted on the Leverguns forum that his standard Model 94 Winchester was still going strong after being converted to the 444/308 wildcat back in 1979. Rocketts rifles have been shooting a steady diet of full charge loads for all these years.
I have compared the .444M and the .307W - the case bodies look similar, but the .444 is longer. How different is the wildcat .444/.308 from the .307W?

There is not much written on the web on the .444/308.

Pete
__________________
...don't count out lever guns such as the Winchester Model 88. This rig, chambered to .308 Win, will handle nearly any deer situation.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-18-2010, 02:25 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 24
Boy, my 3 and a half cents sure didnt buy much, but hey, thats par for the course.

I have an old 64 model 94 winchester, that when I aquired it, it was to be a 35/30 (necked up to 35 caliber) project, but when I mounted a receiver sight on it and shot it at 100 yards, I decided to leave it alone. It shoots anything you pour down it better than I thought it should. I have thought of "Acklimating" it but for what it is, Id hate to mess with something that isnt broken. Im sure Ill come up with another when the neighbors get in a bind and may persue the Improved or the 35 caliber job in the future.

My brother ( the resident 'smith ) did a 336 marlin in 307 for a guy and he has been shooting it for 2 years, but he handloads, so the statement as to suitability may very well be true. I had him do a 356 winchester for me on the marlin platform with great results. I too handload as the 356 ammo is hard to find here, but have shot a box of factory shells for the brass. Now, if I could have found a 94 AE Big Bore in 356, that work would never have taken place. But Marlin built a few of these in that caliber with nothing special done to the receiver (heat treating or beefed side walls such as the Big Bore Winchester version) and I have done my research as to whether its safe. But time and shooting will tell the tale.

Tommy
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-18-2010, 04:24 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,596
Many shooters are unaware that Robert Hutton, with some help from P.O. Ackley necked the 444 to just about every caliber he could think of as soon as the cartridge appeared.
Ackley, Hutton, Grinnell and Hemphill speculated on the best caliber for the new wildcats. Hemphill hit the money on expected performance from the .30 and .35 Caliber 444 wildcats.
Later when Rockett wrote of his 444/308 he had the 307 Winchester exactly as it appeared later. There is no difference in the cartridge dimensions.

The 35-30-30 is a cartridge which interested me for quite awhile. Beartooth member Maroontoad has or had a 35-30-30AI in Australia. He likes the cartridge and did quite a bit of hunting with it until he built his 35 Greevy.
There is a lot of possibility in the 35-30-30 as with any of the appropriate powders simply pour in enough for a compressed load and start hunting.

Typing on the handheld is difficult for me. Corrected the spelling and I should have pointed out Seattlerdwarrior and his Marlin 336ís chambered and re-barreled for the 307 Winchester functioned very well up to about 85% pressure, after that there were indications the action was being pushed.
Marlin with the 308MX and the 3089 Marlin Express cartridge seems to have taken great care to fit the sliding bolt and the vertical locking bolt together. My rifles exhibits no stress with warm loads. Before there was pressure tested load data I loaded the 308ME right up near 307 Winchester velocities but I backed off when the pressure tested load data came out.
__________________
slim

Last edited by William Iorg; 11-18-2010 at 05:25 PM. Reason: fixed spelling added a thought
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-19-2010, 02:47 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Nericia in Sweden
Posts: 146
Does that means that the .30-444 can be fired from any standard m/94 Winchester action without damage?

Supposedly the .35 Greevy is not for a classic m/94: http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=49824

Pete
__________________
...don't count out lever guns such as the Winchester Model 88. This rig, chambered to .308 Win, will handle nearly any deer situation.

Last edited by Old Shatterhand; 11-19-2010 at 02:49 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-19-2010, 05:26 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,596
Myron Rockett and several other wildcatters have done so. Rockett wrote his report for the 1979 Edition of the Gun Digest (33rd). These ideas were also bounced around the American Reloaders Association in the late 1960ís.

Rockett and a few others have reported no difficulty with their Winchester Model 94 top eject rifles re-worked for the 444/308. I have always assumed the result would be like those experienced by Seattlerdwr. Seattlerdwr had two Marlin 336 rifle re-chambered for the 307 Winchester and then built a full custom with the 307 Winchester cartridge slightly shortened and mildly improved.
Seattlerdwr found the Marlin 336 action was stressed hard by the full power 307 Winchester loads. Seattlerdwr settled on loads which were very slightly reduced. These loads functioned fine in his rifles.

Myron Rockett listed his load data and it was lightly compressed loads of IMR powder. Rockett was experimenting prior to the new powders we have available now. With IMR powders, you begin to run out of case capacity just as you reach a maximum pressure load - a good balance between case capacity and the powders available to Rockett at the time. Today we have a greater variety of medium burn powders and we are upping the velocity and pressure considerably over what Rockett and other wildcatters were able to develop in the 1960ís and Ď70ís.
As seattlerdwr found when we begin pushing the 307 Winchester above the velocities envisioned by Winchester we need the strength of the Big Bore action.

Rockett loaded 44.0 grains of IMR 3031 behind the 150-grain bullets. With no indication of trouble in his Winchester Model 94.
Personally, I feel IMR 30311 is a bit fast for the 307 Winchester and I stop at 41.0 grains for best case life and for my personal comfort in hot weather. This weekend we will have 80-degree days and I have experienced light lever kick with loads of IMR 3031 above 43.0 grains with the 150-grain bullet.

Rockett used 42.5 grains of IMR 4064 behind the Hornady 150-grain round nosed bullet.
This load chronographs above 2,575 fps from my rifle.

Rockett used 40.0 grains of IMR 4064 behind the 170-grain Hornady round nose bullet.
For many years 40.0 grains of IMR 4064 behind the Speer 170-grain flat nose bullet was my go-to hunting load. This load chronographs a rough 2,350 fps + from my 20Ē barrel and it is a good penetrating load which kills deer quickly. On a warm day this load will chronograph above 2,400 fps.

I found all of Myron Rocketts load data to be less than maximum in my Big Bore rifle and it gave good or better accuracy with excellent case life. Frank Hemsted, P.O. Ackley, Myron Rockett and a few others did their research well on this cartridge for the rifles and the powders of their day. The wildcat 444/308 exceeds the comfortable/everyday performance of the 30-30AI when using IMR and Winchester 748 powders. If you limit your 170-grain loads to 2,400 fps and less, I do not see a problem with the 444/308 wildcat and the top eject Winchester Model 94. To raise the 170-grain bullet velocities above 2,400 fps will require the use of more modern powders such as Hodgdon Varget, Alliant Reloder 15 and IMR 8208. Youíre entering an area where I have not been with the 307 - the top eject rifle.
I have been there and beyond with the 30-30AI in the top eject Model 94 and the Marlin 336 but the 30-30AI is a smaller diameter case.
__________________
slim
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-20-2010, 03:07 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Nericia in Sweden
Posts: 146
Interesting lecture! It seems that a good Win 94 can take som sturdy loads, but the AI-version would be enough for my purpose.

Hodgdon seems to be introducing a new powder, the LVR. They annonce a maxload of 36.3 grs giving a 170 grs bullet 2332 fps @ 35,400 CUP. AI prestanda from a standard .30WCF. http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/SuperLever.pdf Has anyone tried it yet?
__________________
...don't count out lever guns such as the Winchester Model 88. This rig, chambered to .308 Win, will handle nearly any deer situation.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-21-2010, 06:07 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mooresville, IN
Posts: 9,138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Shatterhand View Post
Interesting lecture! It seems that a good Win 94 can take som sturdy loads, but the AI-version would be enough for my purpose.

Hodgdon seems to be introducing a new powder, the LVR. They annonce a maxload of 36.3 grs giving a 170 grs bullet 2332 fps @ 35,400 CUP. AI prestanda from a standard .30WCF. http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/SuperLever.pdf Has anyone tried it yet?
To the best of my knowledge, the powder isn't on the shelves in the US. Expected release date is early next year, although they are printing load data, as you discovered. This is the same powder they've been using in their LeverEvolution ammunition, which creates higher velocity at similar pressures. I know you don't like the idea of gummy-bullets in your classic gun, but if you're trying to maintain a specific velocity/energy at 100 meters, the higher BC of the FTX bullets will help you get there. Also, the on-game performance reports have indicated that they get the job done where it counts. The 30/30AI, with LVR powder and 160gr FTX bullet would seem to be just the ticket for your circumstance.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-02-2010, 06:03 PM
MSM MSM is offline
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 38
This is very interesting to me. I have used Alliant Reloader #15 and the Hornady 160 grain FTX bullet with good results on three deer, a pig and a coyote. It seems the bullet gets the job done, though I would imagine the 170 grain Nosler Partition would be more stoutly made.
I am not shooting an AI chamber, but have noticed the FTX bullet seems quite long and takes up some of the limited .30-30 case capacity. In looking at the brass of my friends .30-30 AI it would appear that any gains with the .30-30 AI at standard .30-30 pressures would be marginal with the FTX bullet. It seems the .30-30 AI gets a considerable boost from enlarging the case capacity by shortening the neck.
Well, I have absolutely no experience with the .30-30 AI, so my comments may be with out weight. Just my thoughts on the matter.
Thanks,
MSM
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-02-2010, 06:23 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,596
If you are making velocity comparisons between the 30-30 and the 30-30AI at standard pressure levels, the 30-30AI is a waste of time. If you are unwilling to raise the pressure to increase velocity, do not fool with the Improved case but switch to a larger capacity cartridge such as the 308 Marlin Express or the 307 Winchester.

If you have access to a good public library or know someone with a good collection of older Gun Digestís look for a copy of the 1958 issue of Gun Digest. Look for an article by John Maynard titled Common Sense Case Capacity. The article compares Remingtonís experimental 244-cartridge case shapes loaded to the same pressure and tested under carefully controlled conditions. As the cartridge case capacity was increased, it required substantially greater powder charges to achieve the 50,000-CUP test pressure and the velocity increases for the large powder charge increase were quite small.

Bottom line is if you desire higher velocities, you must raise the pressure.
__________________
slim
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-06-2010, 05:45 PM
MSM MSM is offline
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 38
Slim, I haven't had a chance to go to a library but I have read most of the strings alluded to in this string. I am most interested in the brass life. I think I read where you were getting ten firings with out difficulty, and also that firing once in the regular chamber severely shortened the case life. Short brass life has become a pet peeve of mine, so if no velocity gains were realized I would still appreciate the increased case life...so long as it was still a 1.5 - 2.0ish MOA rifle for three shots.
No one that I have ever read from has commented on the reliability of the improved cartridges feeding through a 336, so I guess there is no changes?
Thanks,
MSM
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-07-2010, 04:15 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,596
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSM View Post
Slim, I haven't had a chance to go to a library but I have read most of the strings alluded to in this string. I am most interested in the brass life. I think I read where you were getting ten firings with out difficulty, and also that firing once in the regular chamber severely shortened the case life. Short brass life has become a pet peeve of mine, so if no velocity gains were realized I would still appreciate the increased case life...so long as it was still a 1.5 - 2.0ish MOA rifle for three shots.
No one that I have ever read from has commented on the reliability of the improved cartridges feeding through a 336, so I guess there is no changes?
Thanks,
MSM
I have only reamed one Marlin 336 to 30-30AI but this has cycled a lot of ammunition with no modification to the lifter with no difficulty at all.
I believe Tayloer had some functioning problems with his rifle. I believe the problem was the lift was too narrow. I would have to search under .30-30AI and Taylor to find the thread.

Case life with the standard 30-30 has been excellent for me within the published load limits. I have found the newer medium slow powders such as Hodgdon Varget and Alliant Reloder 15 to deliver very high performance.
Currently my wife and I are looing at Alliant Reloder 10X with an interest in high performance loads for the standard 30-30 and the 30-30AI.
With the standard 30-30 we are not looking for dramatic improvement as the cartridge begins to have other problems in the lever-guns when we begin to be adveturous.
Case stretching and broken cases along with sticky extraction are the three big problems.

I use the number of 10 loads as a minimum base line for the AI loads. It is rare that a case will not exceed the 10 load limit by a good margin before we notcie the primers begin to seat easily. This is generaly the first indication of a problem. We start off with new brass and a full power standard 30-30 load. then we full length re-size for every load. You have probably seen our original velocity goals and these generaly where we stay.

The performance Inprovement is real but not that much better than the 26" barrel.
__________________
slim
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-21-2010, 07:21 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 286
Been away from the board a few days. What great info, Slim, thanks.
__________________
Paul
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-21-2010, 08:35 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 645
So, dumb question...

Not counting the millions of .30-30 rifles that someone might want to convert to .30-30AI...

Does the .308 Marlin Express pretty much render the .30-30AI obsolete?
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-21-2010, 09:02 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mooresville, IN
Posts: 9,138
Quote:
Originally Posted by kludge View Post
So, dumb question...

Not counting the millions of .30-30 rifles that someone might want to convert to .30-30AI...

Does the .308 Marlin Express pretty much render the .30-30AI obsolete?
Given that the 308ME only attains its lofty performance numbers through proprietary Hornady loadings, and it might not be around in another 10 years, I would have to say, "no". When the new powders hit the shelves and you can load your own 308ME to factory specs, which is looking a bit unlikely, THEN maybe it makes the 30/30AI obsolete.

Then again, the 30/30 itself should have been obsolete 50 years ago, and isn't...so who really knows?!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
30-30 ACKLEY iMPROVED ??? RML9MM Leverguns and Their Cartridges (General) 19 01-19-2013 06:30 PM
.30 Newton .30 Newton Wildcat Cartridges 25 12-29-2009 08:40 AM
Looking for a new .30 cal Wazz13 Rifles and Rifle Cartridges 33 12-04-2009 11:55 AM
Improved calibers saltyreb Wildcat Cartridges 29 02-28-2009 11:27 AM
Questions ref loading .30 carbine Kermit Handloading Procedures/Practices 6 02-02-2008 03:09 PM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 07:03 AM.

< Contact Us - Shooters Forum - Archive >

 
 

All Content & Design Copyright © 1999-2002 Beartooth Bullets, All Rights Reserved
View Privacy Policy | Contact Webmaster | Legal Information
Website Design & Development By Exbabylon Internet Solutions
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2