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  #1  
Old 02-16-2011, 06:48 PM
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22 Cheetah?


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22 Cheetah


Jim long time Outdoor Life shooting expert made a 22 Cheetah wildcat decades ago and I was wondering if anyone knew what became of it.

I think, it was based on a benchrest cartridge with a small primer and could produce 220 swift velocites plus
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  #2  
Old 02-16-2011, 06:56 PM
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I believe the 22 Cheetah was a 22 caliber wildcat consisting of a 308 case with a small primer pocket necked down to take .224 bullets.
The idea was that the small primer was an aid to increase accuracy.
If I remember right, it was found that ignition of that much powder by a small primer was kind of iffy. On a summer day, with an easy to ignite powder, it worked, but, any variable thrown into the mix that might inhibit ignition (like low temp,mild primers, harder to ignite powder) caused serious ignition problems.
I do not know if 308 cases with small primer pockets are still available.
Using 308 cases with the standard large primer pockets, there should be no problem with ignition.
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  #3  
Old 02-16-2011, 07:04 PM
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Jack

So have you heard of anyone doing that with a normal 308 case? Just curious

Thanks

Kevin
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  #4  
Old 02-16-2011, 07:07 PM
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I was thinking it was a PCC case but he might have made them from 308 - I forget
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  #5  
Old 02-17-2011, 02:36 AM
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Rem made a run of BR cases with with small primer pockets all it was is a 308 case with small primer pocket.

The first two letter in CHeetah is for (Carmichel-Huntington).

I'd sold my last 10 boxes of that BR brass acouple years ago almost got $1 a case. I think Laupa is making 308 cases with small primer pocket now.

http://www.westernshooter.com/2010/0...er-pocket.html

I never shot the CHeetah I did the 22-250AI and 22BR and I still shoot the 22BR as a varmit rifle. One thing that got the velocity up on the CHeetah was the 1/16 twist barrels and I think Layne Simpson use a 1/16.5 twist 27" long barrel for his article. In all honesty if you put that CHeetah back in a 1/14 twist barrel you be about 22-250AI velocity.
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  #6  
Old 02-17-2011, 02:44 AM
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Old Roper is spot on. In addition to his comments, if you want this kind of performance today, the 223 WSSM would be the "easy" way to get there. That is, if you consider burning out barrels by pushing a huge volume of hot gas after a small bullet a good idea. The larger versions of the CHeetah were quite a bit more useful and competitive, on the circuit.
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  #7  
Old 02-17-2011, 03:58 AM
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I believe that the palma 308 cases are small primer....

Carmichel talks about the Cheetah in good detail in his book "Book of the rifle." Which by the way it one of the better books out there. Old or not, the information is still relevant.
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  #8  
Old 02-17-2011, 12:55 PM
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Thanks All

I was interested if the round ever did good for itself. I seems that the stanards of 22 -250, is the common sence approach.

Thanks
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  #9  
Old 03-03-2011, 04:05 AM
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The 22-250 is the common sense approach. But wildcatters are not interested in things like common sense.
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  #10  
Old 03-03-2011, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMFWoodchuck View Post
The 22-250 is the common sense approach. But wildcatters are not interested in things like common sense.
Respectively, all cartridges started as wildcats, initiated by Wildcatters.

Wildcatters are the reason that we are not still shooting MuzzleLoaders with round balls. All the common sence rounds started as wildcasts prior to becoming commercal cartridges. Wildcatters are allways involved either as the emplyee of manufactorer or in the general public.

That includes the 22-250!!!!!!

Kevin

If the 22 Cheetah would have proven itself, it might have made the 22-250 absolete and then it would be the non-common sence one to own. Smiles It happens all the time.

Last edited by Kev7griz; 03-03-2011 at 08:36 AM.
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  #11  
Old 03-03-2011, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kev7griz View Post
Respectively, all cartridges started as wildcats, initiated by Wildcatters.

Wildcatters are the reason that we are not still shooting MuzzleLoaders with round balls. All the common sence rounds started as wildcasts prior to becoming commercal cartridges. Wildcatters are allways involved either as the emplyee of manufactorer or in the general public.

That includes the 22-250!!!!!!

Kevin

If the 22 Cheetah would have proven itself, it might have made the 22-250 absolete and then it would be the non-common sence one to own. Smiles It happens all the time.
Actually, a lot of cartridges in use today were created by one military or another, although many of those cartridges have spawned wildcats that became standard offerings. Wildcat cartridges have definitely challenged gun designers to look at things differently and what was once conventional wisdom gets turned upside down. The 22-250 came from the 250 Savage, which came from the 300 Savage. When the 300 Savage was introduced, it was pointed out by many gun writers and enthusiasts that the neck was less than one caliber long and thus, accuracy would be awful. It was predicted that it would not be around long and wouldn't be effective because of the short neck.

Well, it proved what a bunch of hogwash THAT line of thinking was, and so followed the 250/3000 Savage, and not long after, the 22-250. One can even argue that the 300 Win Mag, with its short neck, owes some credit for its creation to the 300 Savage. However, the 300 WM is also another example of a cartridge that is not the result of someone dreaming up a wildcat, because it really caught the shooting world by surprise when Winchester didn't just neck down their 338WM case.

Wildatting is responsible for a lot, but not every single cartridge out there, today.
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  #12  
Old 03-03-2011, 09:12 AM
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I wouldn't call it a wildcat if it was first produced by a government arsenal, or an established ammunition / firearms manufacturer.
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  #13  
Old 03-03-2011, 10:21 AM
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We are must be using a different definition of a Wildcatters and Wildcat cartridges.

Someone was allway been there to dream up and test an unproven design. Weither it was from scatch or from another case. In the development of a cartridge even by the military there are dreamers inveolved. These dreamers are the ones I call Wildcatters.

The military case the 30-06 did not start out as a 30-06 so in my way of thinking it was a wildcat at one time. Even if you do not consider a cartridge as a Wildcat, I consider the developer a Wildcatter.

So we are basically think a like. I guess you define a wildcatter as a person that just modifies a commercialy viable case, not the ones that went through several cases before the the final commercial/Military case was settled on.

I just had a wider view of the term wildcatter.

But, you listed some prime wildcat cartridge lines.

The RUMS, WSM, etc lines all started from exsisting cases. The Shooting Times Westerners, and 8mm from the 375 H&H, which I bet at one time was a wildcat case. The 308 spawned a lot as does every case that hits the market.

The first cartride went through hundered of stages from the paper package with ball and powder to the first brass case, and then on.... I have even developed a hole line of case based on the now not so new 375 Ruger, they share the list of thousands unknown potencial wildcats seeking a comercial life.

To me it is a question like which came first the Wildcatter or the Cartridge? Or when is a Wildcatter a Wildcatter rather than an employee of a private contractor for the Military?

Way too much said and I will not say more


Kevin

Quote:
Originally Posted by broom_jm View Post
Actually, a lot of cartridges in use today were created by one military or another, although many of those cartridges have spawned wildcats that became standard offerings. Wildcat cartridges have definitely challenged gun designers to look at things differently and what was once conventional wisdom gets turned upside down. The 22-250 came from the 250 Savage, which came from the 300 Savage. When the 300 Savage was introduced, it was pointed out by many gun writers and enthusiasts that the neck was less than one caliber long and thus, accuracy would be awful. It was predicted that it would not be around long and wouldn't be effective because of the short neck.

Well, it proved what a bunch of hogwash THAT line of thinking was, and so followed the 250/3000 Savage, and not long after, the 22-250. One can even argue that the 300 Win Mag, with its short neck, owes some credit for its creation to the 300 Savage. However, the 300 WM is also another example of a cartridge that is not the result of someone dreaming up a wildcat, because it really caught the shooting world by surprise when Winchester didn't just neck down their 338WM case.

Wildatting is responsible for a lot, but not every single cartridge out there, today.

Last edited by Kev7griz; 03-03-2011 at 10:23 AM.
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  #14  
Old 03-03-2011, 01:25 PM
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A wildcat is a non-standard cartridge. When the military or corporation introduce new cartridges, those have standards (SAAMI, CIP, or whatever military spec).

Wildcats are released (or documented) without being standardized. It is an easy distinction.
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  #15  
Old 03-03-2011, 02:52 PM
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Also, a wildcat is a cartridge for which factory ammunition and rifles has never been available. A cartridge for which factory ammo and guns was once available is obsolete, such as the 225 Winchester.

An excellent example of a recent cartridge that never was a wildcat is the 6.8 SPC, which was developed and standardized as a SAAMI cartridge, with the idea of meeting a demand for a more powerful round that the military could use in an existing AR platform. At the same time, I see what Kev7Griz is saying about someone with the spirit of a "wildcatter" dreaming up the dimensions and performance threshold of new cartridges, even if they are never referred to as wildcat rounds.
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  #16  
Old 03-05-2011, 02:25 PM
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Is Jim Carmichael .22 CHeetah a 28 degree or 40 degree shoulder ?
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  #17  
Old 03-05-2011, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foresthawk View Post
Is Jim Carmichael .22 CHeetah a 28 degree or 40 degree shoulder ?
The 22 CHeetah sports a 40 degree shoulder.
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  #18  
Old 03-05-2011, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foresthawk View Post
Is Jim Carmichael .22 CHeetah a 28 degree or 40 degree shoulder ?
"Load from a Disk" program lists two .22 Cheetahs one a Mark I with a 40 degree shoulder and another the Mark II., a longer case with a 28 degree shoulder as you know.

I bet Jim's original version was the 40 degree shoulder as he designed it like a fat benchrest case, I read his original article when it was printed in Outdoor Life a few decades ago.

Last edited by Kev7griz; 03-05-2011 at 08:16 PM.
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  #19  
Old 03-15-2011, 09:49 AM
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Jim used the 308 BR case for the small primer pocket. The reason behind that is the ability to withstand high pressures needed to run those 55gr bullets at 4000fps. The reason it didn't catch on is the enormous throat wear caused but the 40+ grains of powder pushed through the .224 bore, like the Dasher the larger daimeter bores do better and cause less throat damage. There are two versions of the CHeetah, MKI and MKII. The first being a 40* shoulder the second a 28*. http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=39287 here is good thread on the CHeetah from the forum, http://www.loaddata.com/members/sear...etallicID=3804
http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/w22chee.html

Cartridges like the 224TTH and the 22-243AI are very similar minus the large primer pocket. The new 22XC and 22-250AI are a little smaller but almost as effective. ADam
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  #20  
Old 03-15-2011, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ab_bentley View Post
Jim used the 308 BR case for the small primer pocket. The reason behind that is the ability to withstand high pressures needed to run those 55gr bullets at 4000fps. The reason it didn't catch on is the enormous throat wear caused but the 40+ grains of powder pushed through the .224 bore, like the Dasher the larger daimeter bores do better and cause less throat damage. There are two versions of the CHeetah, MKI and MKII. The first being a 40* shoulder the second a 28*. http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=39287 here is good thread on the CHeetah from the forum, http://www.loaddata.com/members/sear...etallicID=3804
http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/w22chee.html

Cartridges like the 224TTH and the 22-243AI are very similar minus the large primer pocket. The new 22XC and 22-250AI are a little smaller but almost as effective. ADam
Thanks!!!

You have the information all in one place!!!

Thanks again

Kevin

So you reccomend the new 22XC or 22-250AI ?

Last edited by Kev7griz; 03-15-2011 at 11:16 AM.
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